What do you think of total immersion?

I am going to talk to all the coaches I know, I am sure some will Like TI. Those are the ones who coach the masters, I have no idea what the others think. I think I like a lot of what he does and some stuff I do not like but I am for him.

Originally posted by gull80 How did Adrienne do in Athens? I assume that the above remark was intended to be inflamatory. :P If it was not, please disregard the sentences below. I don't know that she even swam in Athens. However, her 1650 time justifies whatever training program she is following as well as whatever technique she employs. You don't need to be an Olympian to prove your mettle in swimming, especially when your 1650 time is faster than the men's 18-24 USMS top ten in that event by a significant margin.

Exactly. If we are to conclude that the TI method is responsible for what she was able to achieve, then of course we must find fault elsewhere when she falls short of her goal to make the Olympic team. Or we can always say that qualifying for the Olympic trials should be achievement enough. How was her competition trained?

Originally posted by 330man ...I highly doubt that TI is to blame for her failure to make the Olympic Team in 2004. There are so many variables to consider, that is for certain, but I doubt her technique training is one of them. Especially when you consider that the same training was responsible for her record setting 1650 time. So we credit her TI training for her 1650 swim, but we do not fault that same TI training when she fails to make the Olympic team? Very convenient. Maybe she is just a very talented swimmer--as her coach said, "I believed she could be a great swimmer because she had an amazing quality of flow in her swimming." There is no way to know how she would have developed in a "conventional" training program (which likely would have incorporated "TI drills" regardless).

How is it possible for a training method to make you fast and then slow? I don't get it. A training method/style either works for somebody or it does not. Do you think it is possible that she fell off of her original training routine sometime after that article was published?

Craig in Liverpool, Total Immersion, just like any other well-considered program for improving stroke technique, will make you better and faster than you would be swimming your same old, same old. Just how much you improve, and just how "fast" you get is affected by a lot of other variables, such as: age, athletic ability, level of conditioning and prior swimming experience. I am experienced (if rather mediocre) swimmer, and I have used TI to improve my swimming, to include non-trivial drops in time in my 40s. I have used TI principals to coach age group and Div III college swimmers. My work, along with the coaching of other more traditional coaches and hard work and dedication by the swimmers themselves have all resulted in very substantial improvements in swimming and drops in personal best times. End of serious discussion. Now, on to the flame wars. You can take or leave the marketing side of Total Immersion. It's your choice, and you are entitled to your opinion. However, consider the marketing in this context. Who needs a program for stroke technique more desparately than any other discrete group of athletes? Triathletes. What else do we know about triathletes? They will drop oodles of cash on gadgets and gimmicks and shoes and five figure bicycles, all chasing that elusive minute or two improvement in a race that will take them hours to finish. In particular, they will spend several times (measured by hourly rate) more money on coaching than comparable masters swimmers. (Because of convenience issues, I chatted up a tri coach about perhaps paying to join her crew in their swim workout the once a week they do that. She had to requote me her rate twice before I realized that WAS IN FACT the once a week swim workout rate, and that these people pay hundreds of dollars, A MONTH, for the full package.) However, from my biased swimmer's point of view, the workouts are not very immaginative interval chasing. Why's that? Because triathletes have so bought into the paradigm of more pain means more improvement that they will fire the coach if their heart rate falls below a certain level. So, how do you get this crowd, who so clearly are highly conditioned well beyond the cardio fitness of any other group of weekend athletes on the face of the planet and the last thing they need is one more high intensity workout with lousy form, to back off of their aerobic threshold and learn how to swim without committing crimes against nature and abominations in the eyes of God? Well, Terry Laughlin, clever man, has hit on a simple formula. He starts with a well conceived set of drills that may or may not be revolutionary. Again, you're entitled to your opinion. (And for we cheapskate swimmers, who *** about paying $3 more in meet entry fees so that the team hosting the meet actually breaks even instead of having to subsidize it, can cleverly get the gist of it for $15-$20 on a book, and a few dollars more on videos if we want to be extravagant, complaining the whole time about why ALL the drills are not available on the web for, you know, free.) Then he charges triathletes buckets of money for "clinics," because they don't take anything seriously if it's not ruinously expensive. Then he hops up on his soap box, and in the idiom of Frank Zappa: "The Mystery Man came over An' he said: 'I'm outa-site!' He said, for a nominal service charge, I could reach nervonna t'nite If I was ready, willing 'n able To pay him his regular fee He would drop all the rest of his pressing affairs And devote His Attention to me "But Gull said . . . Look here brother, Who you jivin' with that Cosmik Debris? (Now who you jivin' with that Cosmik Debris?) Look here brother, Don't you waste your time on me "The Mystery Man got nervous An' he fidget around a bit He reached in the pocket of his Mystery Robe An' he whipped out a shaving kit Now, I thought it was a razor An' a can of foamin' goo But he told me right then when the top popped open There was nothin' his box won't do With the oil of Afro-dytee An' the dust of the Grand Wazoo He said: 'You might not believe this, little fella, but it'll cure your Asthma too!' "An' Gull said . . . Look here brother, Who you jivin' with that Cosmik Debris? (Now what kind of a geroo are you anyway?) Look here brother, Don't you waste your time on me Don't waste yer time . . ." So his Terry jivin' us with his cosmik debris? Or, has he measured his audience and figured out what it will take to get them to pay attention and learn how to swim well? Matt

Gull it is a business and he is doing a good job, he has compiled a nice little package he now has a swim studio using endless pools. I owned and operated three indoor swimming pools, called the George Park Swimming Schools I taught or my staff taught 12,000 kids and adults swimming lessons every year, the money rolled in. But it was hard work and I earned every penny. I brought them along until they wanted to become competetive swimmers, but I would send those who required more than 1 or 2 hrs work elsewhere. They could not afford to pay me for the swim lessons to go on to the Olympics. A few did go on to swim for Canada. I have never claimed they made the Olympics because of anything I did for them. Most of the kids were great little swimmers went to a swim team coach and were burnt out before they were 10 years of age because when a coach sees a swimmer 7 years old who can beat their 10 year olds they believe it is their chance to prove they are great coaches and work their A** off they don't realize these kids are using technique to swim so fast at a young age.

What's the point to keep on hammering this: Originally posted by Matt S Craig in Liverpool, Total Immersion, just like any other well-considered program for improving stroke technique, will make you better and faster than you would be swimming your same old, same old. ... Matt when here: Criticism of TI Principles you didn't have supportive data against the counter arguments to your claim? The point seems to be that you come supporting Total Immersion with preconceived ideas that shut down readiness to change, followed by you staying closed from learning from counter arguments, followed by you resurrecting the same preconceived ideas in a fresh thread that starts over again from zero after the previous discussion ended in no-contest. Otherwise known as preaching Total Immersion thru: recycling from thread to thread preconceived ideas by means of hit and run, but not defending these ideas on merit.

But does he have a crystal ball?

Originally posted by gull80 There is no way to know how she would have developed in a "conventional" training program (which likely would have incorporated "TI drills" regardless). No, of course there isn't, but wasn't Adrienne's name brought up because someone said something to the effect of "if TI is so great where are all the really fast TI swimmer?" Well, Adrienne Binder is one. You're accusing some people of waffling because they're giving credit to TI for Binder's fast swimming, but don't take away the credit when she doesn't swim as fast. Yet when someone points out a fast swimmer who was trained using TI you say "yeah, but how do we know it was the TI that made her fast?" Pot, meet kettle.