What do you think of total immersion?

It's about time someone wrote a song about me.

Perhaps we could hear about the other elite swimmers trained in a TI program (whatever that means). I just found it interesting that the article about Adrienne, who is the example TI uses, was written in 2002. Why no update?

Originally posted by gull80 Perhaps we could hear about the other elite swimmers trained in a TI program (whatever that means). I just found it interesting that the article about Adrienne, who is the example TI uses, was written in 2002. Why no update? "I wrapped a newspaper 'round my head So I'd look like I was Deep I said some Mumbo Jumbos then An' told him he was goin' to sleep I robbed his rings An' pocket watch An' everything else I found I had that sucker hypnotized He couldn't even make a sound I proceeded to tell him his future then As long as he was hanging around, I said 'The price of meat has just gone up An' yer ol' lady has just gone down . . . ' Look here brother, Who you jivin' with that Cosmik Debris? (Now is that a real poncho or is that a Sears poncho?) Don't you know, You could make more money as a butcher, So don't you waste your time on me (Don't waste it, don't waste your time on me . . . ) Ohm shonty, ohm shonty, ohm shonty-ohm SSHONTAY"

Gull80, If you go back in the postings, you will that after 2002, she went to swim at Auburn, where she is one of many fast swimmers. Since she was not swimming for her club coach, that coach probably keeps up with her swimming but can't write about it now, since she isn't there on a daily basis. Oh yea...go to the Auburn website if you want an update. There was a interview with her a few months back. So there is your update.

My point is that TI would have provided their own update had she made it to Athens. She didn't, so a follow-up piece is not particularly helpful for marketing purposes. Business is business. Look, this is a discussion forum for Masters swimming. When an organization like TI uses the terms "effortless," "revolutionary," etc. in advertising their "new" approach to swimming, it's fair game.

Originally posted by aquageek There's a heaping helping of irony in that statement, huh? No. The thread I linked has many issues -like pause in the leading arm in freestyle, neglect of Stroke Rate, discarding of kicking sets- that Total Immersion advocates and me I counter that they make a swimmer slower. My counter arguments there remain undisputed. There was a time in that thread to dispute my counter arguments. Technically they remain undisputed. Matt's post skips over these counter arguments and starts over again a new promotion of Total Immersion, from level zero. Like no exchange of ideas and learning ever took place.

Originally posted by Frank Thompson Gull: Another swimmer for your reference. He is different because he is a sprinter. Joe Novak finished 10th place in the 1998 Nationals in the 50 Meter Free at :23.40 and 14th place in the 100 Meter Fly, unsure of the time. He swam for West Point and had personal bests of :20.12 and :44.10 in the 50 and 100 Yard Free. ... Joe Novak was also coached by Dave Salo at Nova in Irvine. To whom do you attribute his results? And, are we going to declare now that tenths of coaches who groom faster swimmers than Joe Novak with methods opposite to Total Immersion -like no pause in freestyle, higher and higher Stroke Rate, kicking sets with a board-, they are all more entitled than Total Immersion to the label revolutionary? Coaches like Murray Stevens -who produced many Olympians, including Michael Phelps-, John Carew -who produced Olympian Kieren Perkins-, Denis Cottrel -who produces Grant Hackett-, Doug Frost -who produced Ian Thorpe-, Stephane Widmar -who produces Libby Lenton, the new World Record holder in the 100 meter freestyle-, Genady Touretski -who produced Alex. Popov-, Mike Bottom -who produces Gary Hall Jr. and many other Olympians-, Rick de Mont -who produces Roland Schoeman and Rik Neethling-, Nort Thornton -who produced Matt Biondi-, Bill Rose -who produces Larsen Jensen-, Mark Schubert -who produces Erik Vendt-, Sam Freas, Dave Salo -who produces Jason Lezak-, *** Schoulberg. If constantly over many decades producing Olympians -like Murray Stevens does- that is too revolutionary for Total Immersion, then are we going to declare that high school and age group swimming coaches who produce with methods opposite to Total Immersion teenagers swimming the 100 yards freestyle in 43 and 44 seconds, are they more entitled than Total Immersion to the label revolutionary? Last year Brophy Prep in Arizona did that. Before last year, Xavier in Ohio did that.

Originally posted by gull80 Perhaps we could hear about the other elite swimmers trained in a TI program (whatever that means). I just found it interesting that the article about Adrienne, who is the example TI uses, was written in 2002. Why no update? Gull: Another swimmer for your reference. He is different because he is a sprinter. Joe Novak finished 10th place in the 1998 Nationals in the 50 Meter Free at :23.40 and 14th place in the 100 Meter Fly, unsure of the time. He swam for West Point and had personal bests of :20.12 and :44.10 in the 50 and 100 Yard Free. Here is a link www.armymwr.com/portal/news/display.asp?NEWS_ID=220 He is now coaching and here are some of his thoughts about TI. www.totalimmersion.net/2005articles/january/novak.html www.totalimmersion.net/2005articles/february/7-habits.html

Originally posted by aquageek People used to swear by the Atkins diet also. And people used to think the earth was flat. And people used to think processed asbestos would not hurt you. People used to think and swear by a lot of things. Big deal.

Originally posted by Ion Beza Joe Novak was also coached by Dave Salo at Nova in Irvine. To whom do you attribute his results? And, are we going to declare now that tenths of coaches who groom faster swimmers than Joe Novak with methods opposite to Total Immersion -like no pause in freestyle, higher and higher Stroke Rate, kicking sets with a board-, they are all more entitled than Total Immersion to the label revolutionary? Coaches like Murray Stevens -who produced many Olympians, including Michael Phelps-, John Carew -who produced Olympian Kieren Perkins-, Denis Cottrel -who produces Grant Hackett-, Doug Frost -who produced Ian Thorpe-, Stephane Widmar -who produces Libby Lenton, the new World Record holder in the 100 meter freestyle-, Genady Touretski -who produced Alex. Popov-, Mike Bottom -who produces Gary Hall Jr. and many other Olympians-, Rick de Mont -who produces Roland Schoeman and Rik Neethling-, Nort Thornton -who produced Matt Biondi-, Bill Rose -who produces Larsen Jensen-, Mark Schubert -who produces Erik Vendt-, Sam Freas, Dave Salo -who produces Jason Lezak-, *** Schoulberg. If constantly over many decades producing Olympians -like Murray Stevens does- that is too revolutionary for Total Immersion, then are we going to declare that high school and age group swimming coaches who produce with methods opposite to Total Immersion teenagers swimming the 100 yards freestyle in 43 and 44 seconds, are they more entitled than Total Immersion to the label revolutionary? Last year Brophy Prep in Arizona did that. Before last year, Xavier in Ohio did that. What is the point to keep on hammering this? That is why at the beginning of this thread I linked the past threads so we could spare a trip down memory lane. In fact, I referenced a thread on the USA Swimming site "Terry Laughlin Enough Already" that you are fimilar with because I believe we are going nowhere with this and we just keep repeating the same things that have been said for the last year. The reason I brought the link stories about Adrienne Binder and Joe Novak in this discussion was that Craig III and Gull wanted to know if there were elite swimmers using these TI methods to valid there training philosophy and swimming success. As Gull said, TI does not have a patent on their drills and they package a swim product and successfully market that product. The customer of this market is usually novice swimmers, lap swimmers, and triathletes. I never said that Total Immersion was revolutionary. And I don't dispute all of the coaches and swimmers you list as being successful with other methods that could possibly be called revolutionary. The whole point of adding the link stories was not to dispute any findings but to see a view point from someone who swam at a top level and what there coaches tell us about that success. What I found interesting about Joe Novak was not about his success or lack of it in swimming, but his ideas about TI and why he was converted or born again so to speak about TI and his swimming. He now coaches using the TI principals and he incorporates his swimming experiences with those principals. That angle was not discussed here and that is why I linked the stories. Just another opinion, take it or leave it. I can't really comment on his results because I don't think Joe competed much with David Salo at Nova. There is a swimming tracking website where you can track his results but I can't think of the name of the site right now. I know he didn't swim the 2004 Olympic Trials and I believe he swam some USA National meets before that time. Maybe his service obligations got in the way, who knows. From the articles, I believe he is coaching with TI now.