Dara Torres-Amazing

Saying that Dara Torres is dirty because she is "so far ahead of the curve" is fine. The problem is that that argument also, from a mathematical perspective, admits that there is a curve and therefore she could still be on it, a.k.a. an outlier. There IS precedence for this in the sports world. About 35 years ago, Jack Foster ran 2:11-something as an over 40 athlete - a time that rocked people back on their heels, myself included, especially since it came out of nowhere. (As a comparison, Frank Shorter's BEST ever time was, I think, 2:10:30.) If memory serves me, he was also on the New Zealand Olympic team after 40 and later did some astounding things in, I believe, orienteering. By all accounts he was the soul of honesty and just was at the extreme end of the curve. When he died, his son described him as "a machine for processing oxygen." No argument I've seen here negates the possibility that Torres is an outlier. Secondly, she is only an outlier by current standards. In 20 years she may be closer to the norm. When Kathy Mills ran the 5k in 15:30 in 1975, everyone was astounded. Today it is common and even if you throw out suspected drug cheats, you still have plenty of women left. Also, how long has it been that any significant number of swimmers has even attempted to swim at the very top level past 30? Hell, past 25? How many people in total, really? (BTW, I knew Kathy quite well and she was oddest combination of sweet and tough in one package, but she was clean and then some. I still remember going for a 6 mile run with her one day and having her hurt me in ways that still make my legs ache. I prayed for death in the last mile. And then she hugged me and apologized profusely aftterward.) Thirdly, perhaps Torres DOES have a better training (non-doping) method. Think of what Lydiard did in the late 50's earlier 60's with middle distance runners. Or what Hausleber did with racewalkers in the 1970's. Or what Counsilman did in general. No matter how cynical you are, these were all paradigmatic shifts in training philosophy. Do we have a detailed information about her training? If not, how can we rule out her doing it better? I am not saying that she is clean/not clean. I have no proof either way. I am saying that there is precedence with an historical perspective. -LBJ

In the coming years, the first man who might be capable of such a feat is Neil Walker. Since he is one of the older Olympic level athletes who is still training hard. There aren't very many athletes who could retire for 4, 5, or 6 years then make the kind of remarkable comeback that Dara made. Actually I was going to mention Neil Walker. To my knowledge he has never retired and at age 31 placed fourth in the 100 free at Nationals. He is an outstanding swimmer, but I do not believe that he could (legally) pull off what Dara has.

I'm not taking it anymore - I'm gathering up my ironman watch, pull buoy, diaper shorts, bike shoes, bike pedals, heart rate monitor, wetsuit, paddles, scuba-esque goggles, dorkle and unitard and going over the the USAT discussion forum. Peace out, fruitcakes! Oh, and my flaxseed oil, fish oil, quercetin, coq10, etc too. Get some of that! Don't forget the man-bra! And I thought you disliked running ...

Haven't swam in a meet since Nationals May of 2003 when it was in Arizona. I went to this meet also. I was astonished by the amazing physiques there. I never once thought about doping but, man o man, you see some incredibly fit people at Nationals. It was very inspiring. Someone did steal my dingy old USMS t-shirt while I was warming up. It was probably a Smith. I went to Costco last week to load up on my supplement habit. As opposed to Nationals, Costco is not a place where you find a very fit crowd.

And finally, I guarantee there are Masters swimmers who are juiced. It's human nature. I'm sure this is true. It's amazing what some people will do for perceived glory. A few years ago there was a Masters swimmer who was stripped of a world record, after it was discovered that he had altered his birth certificate to make himself a year older. Read that again: he ALTERED HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE for a MASTERS record. Now, outside of all of us, who even knows that world records for Masters swimming even exist? (How many people outside of us know that Masters swimming exists?) It seems like a lot of effort for a small amount of fame. But if there's someone willing to go to that extreme, I'm sure there are Masters athletes willing to give drugs a try. Anna Lea

Actually, Neil has never taken 2 extended periods of retirement like Dara. Her 7 year or so break prior to her 2000 comeback and then this recent 7 year break since 2000. I don't think he would be a good comparison to Dara because of this. Taking years off like that results in muscle memory loss, aerobic loss, stroke timing issues and obvious strength loss such as in the weight room. That is a long time let the race car sit idle in the garage. I don't know why so many people think that Dara has kept her self in great condition to benefit her swimming during these off years. Any top level coach will tell you, there is VERY little substitute for practicing swimming fast other than working out in the pool and SWIMMING FAST. She did not swim hard for years on end during her breaks which total around 13 years. I would submit to you that her inbetween retirement years are no more active or conditioning related than her peers her age at the USMS nationals.... probably less. Look if age is irrelevant, why aren't numerous 40 year olds going seconds faster than the fastest 30 year old? There is a reason the USMS records GET SLOWER AS YOU GET OLDER. John Smith

By the way....with the cycling world falling back onto and old tried and true method of blood doping....I wonder if USS/FINA have added that into their testing protocol? Huh? They're taking competitors' blood, but not testing for blood doping?! Not looking at the red blood cell counts? Blood doping seems odd. It only helps for the day of the competition, doesn't it? You can't use it for training purposes? Can't be drawing blood on a daily basis ...

Good for her. I don't think I should be personally attacked for thinking that it's possible for her to be doing this without dopping. I hope the quality of the work she is doing (sounds similar to Lezak who is in his 30s so must also be dopping, roght) puts her back onto an Olympic team. I also do not think swimmers that "only" earn relay medals are slackers/not good/slow/etc. IF you follow that logic - Brendan Hansen isn't that great at breaststroke because he was "only" able to win gold on the relay in Athens, Kaitlin Sandeno "only" won a relay gold (never mind that silver in the 400IM and bronze) and of course Jenny Thompson, man she really sucked. Also get your facts straight before you claim to be faster than someone, becuase I am certain that it depends on the stroke.

I don't see how you can possibly argue that winning only relay medals is as good as winning individual ones. It's nothing to be ashamed of, but that is not the question. Anyway, you might want to check out who began the personal attacks.

From today's Kansas City Star... Full article can be found here: www.kansascity.com/.../216607.html Chemist stays out of the spotlight while he does his work to help baseball "...Fifteen miles of concrete jungle from Dodger Stadium sits a two-story, brick building on the edge of Venice and Culver City that is home to the human growth hormone project. While Bonds works in front of millions, the men in this office guard their location like a state secret. Their work is both hush-hush and prominent. The baseball world knows this team of scientists is working to develop a reliable urine test for HGH, but the details are intentionally kept private. Their mission is to fight back against drug cheaters in sports — to make sure the next time one of baseball’s records goes down, there is no federal investigation, no talk of steroids. Don Catlin is heading what he calls the “growth hormone project.” He’s 69 years old and among the world’s most respected chemists. His professional life’s current focus has everything to do with Bonds’ current record chase, and as Catlin speaks on the phone, he is a short drive from where Bonds is the focus of baseball...."