Dara Torres-Amazing

Saying that Dara Torres is dirty because she is "so far ahead of the curve" is fine. The problem is that that argument also, from a mathematical perspective, admits that there is a curve and therefore she could still be on it, a.k.a. an outlier. There IS precedence for this in the sports world. About 35 years ago, Jack Foster ran 2:11-something as an over 40 athlete - a time that rocked people back on their heels, myself included, especially since it came out of nowhere. (As a comparison, Frank Shorter's BEST ever time was, I think, 2:10:30.) If memory serves me, he was also on the New Zealand Olympic team after 40 and later did some astounding things in, I believe, orienteering. By all accounts he was the soul of honesty and just was at the extreme end of the curve. When he died, his son described him as "a machine for processing oxygen." No argument I've seen here negates the possibility that Torres is an outlier. Secondly, she is only an outlier by current standards. In 20 years she may be closer to the norm. When Kathy Mills ran the 5k in 15:30 in 1975, everyone was astounded. Today it is common and even if you throw out suspected drug cheats, you still have plenty of women left. Also, how long has it been that any significant number of swimmers has even attempted to swim at the very top level past 30? Hell, past 25? How many people in total, really? (BTW, I knew Kathy quite well and she was oddest combination of sweet and tough in one package, but she was clean and then some. I still remember going for a 6 mile run with her one day and having her hurt me in ways that still make my legs ache. I prayed for death in the last mile. And then she hugged me and apologized profusely aftterward.) Thirdly, perhaps Torres DOES have a better training (non-doping) method. Think of what Lydiard did in the late 50's earlier 60's with middle distance runners. Or what Hausleber did with racewalkers in the 1970's. Or what Counsilman did in general. No matter how cynical you are, these were all paradigmatic shifts in training philosophy. Do we have a detailed information about her training? If not, how can we rule out her doing it better? I am not saying that she is clean/not clean. I have no proof either way. I am saying that there is precedence with an historical perspective. -LBJ

Saying that Dara Torres is dirty because she is "so far ahead of the curve" is fine. The problem is that that argument also, from a mathematical perspective, admits that there is a curve and therefore she could still be on it, a.k.a. an outlier. There IS precedence for this in the sports world. About 35 years ago, Jack Foster ran 2:11-something as an over 40 athlete - a time that rocked people back on their heels, myself included, especially since it came out of nowhere. (As a comparison, Frank Shorter's BEST ever time was, I think, 2:10:30.) If memory serves me, he was also on the New Zealand Olympic team after 40 and later did some astounding things in, I believe, orienteering. By all accounts he was the soul of honesty and just was at the extreme end of the curve. When he died, his son described him as "a machine for processing oxygen." No argument I've seen here negates the possibility that Torres is an outlier. Secondly, she is only an outlier by current standards. In 20 years she may be closer to the norm. When Kathy Mills ran the 5k in 15:30 in 1975, everyone was astounded. Today it is common and even if you throw out suspected drug cheats, you still have plenty of women left. Also, how long has it been that any significant number of swimmers has even attempted to swim at the very top level past 30? Hell, past 25? How many people in total, really? (BTW, I knew Kathy quite well and she was oddest combination of sweet and tough in one package, but she was clean and then some. I still remember going for a 6 mile run with her one day and having her hurt me in ways that still make my legs ache. I prayed for death in the last mile. And then she hugged me and apologized profusely aftterward.) Thirdly, perhaps Torres DOES have a better training (non-doping) method. Think of what Lydiard did in the late 50's earlier 60's with middle distance runners. Or what Hausleber did with racewalkers in the 1970's. Or what Counsilman did in general. No matter how cynical you are, these were all paradigmatic shifts in training philosophy. Do we have a detailed information about her training? If not, how can we rule out her doing it better? I am not saying that she is clean/not clean. I have no proof either way. I am saying that there is precedence with an historical perspective. -LBJ