Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

Great discussion. A coach of mine (Frank McGrath in New Bern, NC) refers to anaerobic threshold (En2) as "pay as you go" meaning that you are clearing the lactate as it accumulates. I always thought of En3 as being roughly equivalent to race pace, although perhaps that is too fast for a 1500. Two weeks ago I did a set of 15 x 100 @ 1:30 (scm) holding 1:18-1:19, which would be my ideal 1500 race pace, but I don't think I could hold that same pace on a set of 200s in practice without more rest.

I always thought of En3 as being roughly equivalent to race pace En3 is when you are swimming as fast as you can without going into oxygen debt. The pain comes from not being able to get enough energy to the muscles later in the set and that you barely have enough oxygen to keep away lactic pain. I think you are right that the 1500 race pace is En3, probably ending in SpWhateverYouHaveLeft, but it wouldn't be race pace for anything shorter.

Correlations between commonly used terminology and the semantic used by lab operators kind of fluctuates. It sometimes take few adjustments in order make sure we're talking about the same things. I am not too crazy about bugging people with OBLA/MAXLASS etc sort of terminology but like I said, it is sometimes handy to refer to these to clarify communication. The pay as you go expression you used very well depicts what's happening when training anywhere within the threshold spectrum (even at MAXLASS). The limiting factors however kind of varies. At lower end, the glycogen availability tends to be the primary cause of fatigue. At the other end though (MAXLASS), the same remains true but you add on top of that an increased accumulated o2 deficit along with drop in blood's PH along with more muscle tissue damage on top of fatigue of nervous system (central/peripheral). meaning that you are clearing the lactate as it accumulates. We now know that when training at threshold level, you allow your body to be more efficient in not only clearing lactate, but using it. It is (among other things) used as a metabolic fuel and to restore glycogen levels in the liver. Two weeks ago I did a set of 15 x 100 @ 1:30 (scm) holding 1:18-1:19, which would be my ideal 1500 race pace, but I don't think I could hold that same pace on a set of 200s in practice without more rest. Not at this point in the season, but later on I have very little doubt. I think you are probably on for a sub 20m 1500. Let us mutually hope this (it's my target over 1500 this year). If you're already worth it though (sub 20) then no doubt you can swim on a 2:45 per 200 interval assuming you are properly rested.

How do we know this. Is it threshold or what. It depends on consumption of oxigen and what is left in the blood. Does the body float or are you a sinker? Does your stroke technique count? I once did 30X100yards on 1:25 and felt great. The only way you will know you are doing a threshold workout is a blood test.

Threshold - twice a week 35-40 min set - go for best average, no big descending - if you do nothing else, do those 2 sets. I will definitely try that. Typically we have been descending these kinds of sets, which obviously achieves different results. I guess the Sammy Save-Ups on our team will be blowing by me on the last repeat.

It is very hard to imagine being able to stay at this intensity for more than 40min. Remember that it is near some 1500 race pace. Say that you're worth 21 min over 1500 (at the moment), that would could something like 14x200 off 2:55 - try to hold a 2:40-2:45 pace. Feasible but not easy. And when you're worth 20min flat, then this set becomes 15x200 off 2:45 - try to hold 2:35-2:40. Not easy neither. Sweet . Those times are even harder to imagine and for sure not feasible.

But attribute any errors of interpretation to me, not him. :) My mistake. Sorry Maglischo. I agree En-3 can be mile race pace. I do not think En-3 can be race pace for middle distance or sprints. In general, En-3 cannot be defined as race pace. Now that I know who was really behind the confusion, I am not surprised :)

My mistake. Sorry Maglischo. I agree En-3 can be mile race pace. I do not think En-3 can be race pace for middle distance or sprints. In general, En-3 cannot be defined as race pace. Now that I know who was really behind the confusion, I am not surprised :) Now that I'm home and have more time to look again at Maglischo -- hereafter referred to as the bible -- here is some more. He defines 3 additional levels of (sprint) training: Sp-1: Lactate tolerance Sp-2: Lactate production Sp-3: Power training The following are all examples of lactate tolerance sets: Long intervals: 6 x 100 on 7 min or 3 x 200 on 10 min Medium intervals: 12 x 50 on 1 min, 8 x 100 on 2 min, 6 x 200 on 3-4 min Short rest: 3 sets of 4 x 50 with 10-15 sec rest He also specifically discusses "race pace training" as a separate category, saying that repeat distances will need to be 1/2 to 1/4 of race distance for events 200yd or less, and 1/4 to 1/16 of race for distance swimmers. "For middle distance and distance swimmers, race-pace training will produce the same adaptations as overload endurance training (En-3). When sprinters engage in race-pace training, the adaptations are more like those produced by lactate tolerance training (Sp-1)." Despite the overlap, he likes to have race-pace as a separate category because it: (1) "more closely simulates actual metabolic conditions of competition" (2) improves a swimmers' sense of pace (3) "helps swimmers discover the best combination of stroke length and rate for swimming at those speeds." Of course, the converse is true, too: the physiological adaptations that are produced by race-pace training can also be achieved by swimming slower than race pace as long as LA levels are high enough (ie in En-3 or Sp-1 training). I'm not trying to devalue race-pace training; the benefits Maglischo cites are very real. However, I have heard too many people dismiss or downplay the value of a set like 8 x 100 on 2 min simply because you cannot quite achieve race pace in it.

Here are two of my recent favs, feel free to alternate times. Total = 2000 4 x 50s on 1:00 4 x 100s on 1:15 4 x 150s on 1:55 4 x 200s on 2:35 Total = 1050, so you would need to do this multiple times, or keep adding to it. 50 on 1:00 100 on 1:30 150 on 2:00 200 on 2:30 250 on 3:00 300 fast 3:30 rest optional I like some of the sets othes have posted so far.

It is worth pointing out that these to quotes from Maglischo are different than the race pace that is often discussed on the forums: "This would include most of what we have been calling "race pace" training" "an example 10-20 x 100 on the shortest possible sendoff." The race pace defined above is completely different than the race pace in Performance or Pace-time? thread. The quote about race-pace training (bolded above) was mine, not Maglischo. It seems clear (to me, anyway) that En-3 includes race-pace efforts. In fact, it is not TERRIBLY difficult to do mile race pace if the set length is short and/or there is adequate rest. That of course changes as the set gets longer and the intervals more challenging. While some of the sets Maglischo gives as examples of En-3 training can be done at or near mile race-pace, not all of them can. Given the way he describes the goals and physiological adaptations to En-3 training, I can only assume that it is the elevated lactate levels -- and for a relatively prolonged period of time -- that is important to him. But attribute any errors of interpretation to me, not him. :)