Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

Former Member
Former Member
So I have decided to focus on the 1500/1650, partly because I seem to have misplaced the three fast twitch fibers I once owned, and partly because guys named Smith are now swimming the 500 and even the 1000. Geek suggested that I build my endurance with dryland work, but unlike him I have a job and limited time to train, and I don't really want to give up pool time. Any suggestions?
  • While some of the sets Maglischo gives as examples of En-3 training can be done at or near mile race-pace, not all of them can. Given the way he describes the goals and physiological adaptations to En-3 training, I can only assume that it is the elevated lactate levels -- and for a relatively prolonged period of time -- that is important to him. Yeah, this seems pretty clear to me now. En-2 means swimming at your AT pace. Anything faster that that (other than sprints) can be considered En-3. This could either be race pace swims or short rest swims that you really have to push it. If you aren't huffing and puffing when you stop at the wall you're probably working at En-2 rather than En-3. How about this for layman's terms: En-1 - Your basic, bread-and-butter aerobic sets. "Cruise speed." En-2 - Hard aerobic sets. What would generally be considered a "hard" aerobic set. En-3 - When given by the coach will elicit an audible groan by the swimmers :) "How deep can you dig?" type of sets. Both mentally and physically challenging.
  • Former Member
    Former Member
    It is worth pointing out that these to quotes from Maglischo are different than the race pace that is often discussed on the forums: "This would include most of what we have been calling "race pace" training" "an example 10-20 x 100 on the shortest possible sendoff." The race pace defined above is completely different than the race pace in Performance or Pace-time? thread.
  • Former Member
    Former Member
    So let me summarize some of the key points of the discussion: -The 1500 = anaerobic threshold, so I need to adjust my training accordingly; -My training should include sets lasting 20-30 minutes with
  • Former Member
    Former Member
    I'm not trying to devalue race-pace training; the benefits Maglischo cites are very real. However, I have heard too many people dismiss or downplay the value of a set like 8 x 100 on 2 min simply because you cannot quite achieve race pace in it. I can for sure agree with that -- I think a good season should basically have a progression of race pace sets. This season, I am looking for a good 100 and 200 combo - in that order. Last year, I only focused on speed work and my 200 time was rather poor (but if you only want a fast 100, that would be all you need)- so this season, I am taking a more traditional season approach. I can really only swim 2 hard workouts per week - the other workouts have some fast swims but not any all out main sets + I am doing 2 resistance speed work sets - which kick my behind like nothing else... So I did: 3 weeks of Mile pace sets 3 weeks of 800 pace sets 3 weeks of 400 pace sets 3 weeks of 200 pace sets (that's right now) 3 weeks of 100 pace 3 weeks of pure speed I really should have had 4-6 weeks of aerobic threshold work before - but I did not have the time (3 seasons a year is too many !!!!). At the meet ten days ago, my mile was just ok - but I had a really strong in season 400. Which makes sense - we shall see how the rest goes ...
  • Former Member
    Former Member
    -Race pace sets can be constructed with 50s or 100s. 100 to 400 for the 1500/1650.
  • Former Member
    Former Member
    As a reminder, there's this good old Critical Swim Speed concept that would allow you to build smart sets. Based on two inputs, it can guide you in determining what target pace should be for any (longish) distance. For instance, you supply the 200 and the 400, you get the 3000. So you can tune a set of 15x200 on precise pace using this old principle. So my CSS is faster than my "En2/anaerobic threshold" pace (derived from a T-1000) but slightly slower than my goal 1500 pace. You are saying that once or twice a week I should be doing sets like 10 x 200 with 20 seconds rest swimming at my CSS, correct?
  • Former Member
    Former Member
    Do we need codes? I prefer to keep it simple. I suggest you pick the time you want to swim, a 100, 200, 1500, for the 100 if you want to swim it in 1 min, that means 15 sec per 25 then start swimming it in 15 sec with a rest of 15 sec then reduce rest peiods, So on 200s could be done the same way using 25s or 50s, 1500s you can use 25s, 50s, or 100s.
  • Former Member
    Former Member
    This has been a very timely thread for me as I just did a T-30 swim and I'm trying to develop a training plan around it. I'd welcome any critique on what I've got so far. I created the attached spreadsheet based on the White, Red, Purple color system developed by retired University of Michgan coach John Urbanchek. To create the spreadsheet, I used Coach Urbanchek's presentation found here...www.utswimcoach.com/MD_2005_final.ppt My training paces are based on a T-30 test done at 1:13 pace (2,466 SCY): White: EN-1 Aerobic Training Intensity: Low Short Rest, 5-15 Seconds :10 Heart Rate = 17-20 bpm, 60-70% of 170 Max 100s Target Pace = 1:13.8 200s Target Pace = 2:29.5 500s Target Pace = 6:18.1 Example Sets @ T-30 = 1:13 12 x 100 @ 1:20, holding 1:14, :06 Rest 6 x 200 @ 2:40, holding 2:30, :10 Rest 3 x 500 @ 6:35, holding 6:18, :17 Rest Red: EN-2 Anaerobic Threshold Training Intensity: Hard but Tolerable Short Rest, 10-20 Seconds :10 Heart Rate = 21-24 bpm, 75-85% of 170 Max Optimal Intensity for Endurance Improvement 100s Target Pace = 1:10.2 200s Target Pace = 2:22.1 500s Target Pace = 5:59.2 Example Sets @ T-30 = 1:13 12 x 100 @ 1:25, holding 1:10, :15 Rest 6 x 200 @ 2:40, holding 2:22, :18 Rest 3 x 500 @ 6:20, holding 5:59, :21 Rest Purple: EN-3 VO2 Max Training Intensity: Hard and Uncomfortable Longer Rest, :30 - 1:30 :10 Heart Rate = 26-27 bpm, 90-95% of 170 Max Ideal for 400-1500 Race Pace Training 100s Target Pace = 1:05.3 200s Target Pace = 2:15.1 500s Target Pace = 5:45.7 Example Sets @ T-30 = 1:13 12 x 100 @ 1:50, holding 1:05, :45 Rest 6 x 200 @ 3:00, holding 2:15, :45 Rest 3 x 500 @ 6:45, holding 5:46, :59 Rest
  • Former Member
    Former Member
    So my CSS is faster than my "En2/anaerobic threshold" pace (derived from a T-1000) but slightly slower than my goal 1500 pace. You are saying that once or twice a week I should be doing sets like 10 x 200 with 20 seconds rest swimming at my CSS, correct? Hmmm not quite. 1) I absolutely can not issue any recommendation as to how many times a week etc without getting involved little deeper into your planning as a whole. Some have issued recommendations that modulate based on the time of year, I think it is very smart. 2) I don't mind or care about the CSS pace as much as the CSS concept as a whole as a tool to find most accurate pace given the sets you'd like to compose (see note at the bottom) I tried (hopefully I was successful) to attach an excel spreadsheet. Have a look and you'll understand what I meant (see at the very bottom of this post). - - - Note Composing tight threshold or distance sets I agree with every sets that were suggested so far in this thread as long as they meet these two principles: 1) AVG intensity of the segments remains in the zone you want to address 2) The little short recoveries between the intervals are under 30s (ideally 20s and less) so that your body barely notice about these recoveries ** btw, same principle for Maglischo's overload intensity sets, which very often will end up being Vo2Max sets. Sample Threshold set based on CSS Say you want to compose a set that is one 3k long segment. You pick the Excel Sheet (attached), look at the pace you should hold over 3k and build the set accordingly. In the Excel Sheet, the two data point used are 400m=5:40; 1000=14:15. If you look at the row corresponding to 3000, you'll see that the suggested pace is 1:25.7. The set could be built around this. Since 1:25.7 is the target pace, an interval of 1:25 may be little short. 1:30 may be little to long. In such a case, your best option is to see if you get a nice match with 200s. 2:55 would still be little short maybe. But if you think in term of 300s, then it's easy to find a suitable interval. 10x300 off 4:25 may be totally appropriate in this example scenario Or even better here: 10x300 @ 4 off 4:30 / 3 off 4:25 / 2 off 4:20 / last one faster than 4:15. This gives a descending time edge to the set. That's an example of how to use the CSS concept to establish target pace for distance training. hope this clarifies things a bit.
  • Former Member
    Former Member
    So let me summarize some of the key points of the discussion That's pretty much it. I had a look at Maglischo's book this morning. I don't use his classification terminology (En1, En2 etc). Much earlier in the thread, I interpreted En1 as being an intensity level that'd be below LT (or aerobic threshold as Maglischo and some others call it). I was wrong. Maglischo's En1 = Sweet Spot. It represents, like others have suggested, an intensity spectrum that sits in between aerobic threshold and anaerobic threshold. Now I understand little better why Maglischo recommends that as much volume as possible be done at this intensity level especially for distance swimmers.
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