Dara Torres-Amazing

What I am much more interested in is the alternative hypothesis: if she isn't cheating, what is she doing DIFFERENTLY that could account for her performance? I do recall that one of Ande's tip's suggest we change SOMETHING to get different results. I doubt that spending less time in the pool (relative to collegiate standards) and spending more time on core strengthening and resistance training is all that unique among master's athletes. From reading the NYTimes article, its clear that her nearly constant use of massage therapists is very unique; who among us could afford TWO full time therapists? I have no idea if this can be the critical factor. I would actually disagree about masters athletes and how they train. I travel all over the US and train with dozens of teams each year and there is one single constant; the majority of competitive masters swimmers overtrain and focus to much time on volumne and not enough in quality race prep training.. I can't even begin to tell you how many times I hear "I'm trying to get into shape" or "I can't go to a meet until I get a base". What Dara is doing and teams like The Race Club as well as a few others in masters swimming is recognizing that time spent in the water should be high quality, race pace and a focus on perfect technique...aerobic base training is better attained thru things like spin classes. Chris Carmichael was recently interviewed and said the biggest mistake recreational athletes with limited time do is low level aerobic work...given limited time he recommends extremely high intensity practice....try telling that to the soccer mom/dad you see on the elliptical at the gym every morning with the level set at 5! Additionally the lack of attention to flexibility amongst our peers is staggering. Its funny that each year at nationals I talk to at least a half dozen swimmers who STARTED stretching the week before the meet and pulled something...even more get injured because they have done nothing in this area then attempt to go 100% effort in multiple events over multiple days and staring something. Starts is probably the most neglected thing....people wait to practice them the week before a meet rather than do them at every practice then STOP doing them a week before the meet to rest the legs. I would encourage everyone who is interested in competition to really change things up for one 5-6 month training cycle and see what happens. If you can overcome the mental side of reducing Additionally and trusting your training and REALLY resting you might be surprised at the results.

Yes. These FINA rules apply to all athletes. At this time testing of Masters athletes has not been implemented. But just because FINA is not testing Masters does not make it legal, right or fair. Is there a list of banned substances for Masters Swimming? If not how do we have a rule against banned substances? Also, if they don't test, how can it be illegal. I also agree about being right or fair. Call me a cyninc, but I think there are a few who do compete in this organization that don't care. I think they just want to win at any cost. To each his own...:dedhorse:

I would actually disagree about masters athletes and how they train. I travel all over the US and train with dozens of teams each year and there is one single constant; the majority of competitive masters swimmers overtrain and focus to much time on volumne and not enough in quality race prep training.. I can't even begin to tell you how many times I hear "I'm trying to get into shape" or "I can't go to a meet until I get a base". What Dara is doing and teams like The Race Club as well as a few others in masters swimming is recognizing that time spent in the water should be high quality, race pace and a focus on perfect technique...aerobic base training is better attained thru things like spin classes. Chris Carmichael was recently interviewed and said the biggest mistake recreational athletes with limited time do is low level aerobic work...given limited time he recommends extremely high intensity practice....try telling that to the soccer mom/dad you see on the elliptical at the gym every morning with the level set at 5! Additionally the lack of attention to flexibility amongst our peers is staggering. Its funny that each year at nationals I talk to at least a half dozen swimmers who STARTED stretching the week before the meet and pulled something...even more get injured because they have done nothing in this area then attempt to go 100% effort in multiple events over multiple days and staring something. I wonder if most masters swimmer take the approach you've observed because: (1) they're used to it; (2) that's how their teams train; (3) they simply prefer it to race pace work; and/or (4) they're focused on longer distances, as Dave notes. Seems that most would know from casual reading that race pace and core work is critical for competitive distances of 200 or less, if that's what they wanted to do. On the other hand, I agree that I have seen quite a few sprinters ('t know any masters in the gym 90 minutes, in the pool 90 minutes and on the massage table 60 minutes 5-6 x per week. That's 4 hours per day, not counting transtition time and re-fueling! Dave: I'm only training for 50s and 100s. :thhbbb: No time for yoga. Too busy running for some aerobic work.

aerobic base training is better attained thru things like spin classes. I think what you're getting at is that if you're in the pool just a few hours per week you should concentrate on race-pace and technique training rather than aerobic or "long slow distance" training, and I agree. I would, however, disagree that base training is better attained through something like a spin class, though. What's your basis for this?

most people train to train instead of training to race I need to do more flat starts ande I would actually disagree about masters athletes and how they train. I travel all over the US and train with dozens of teams each year and there is one single constant; the majority of competitive masters swimmers overtrain and focus to much time on volumne and not enough in quality race prep training.. I can't even begin to tell you how many times I hear "I'm trying to get into shape" or "I can't go to a meet until I get a base". What Dara is doing and teams like The Race Club as well as a few others in masters swimming is recognizing that time spent in the water should be high quality, race pace and a focus on perfect technique...aerobic base training is better attained thru things like spin classes. Chris Carmichael was recently interviewed and said the biggest mistake recreational athletes with limited time do is low level aerobic work...given limited time he recommends extremely high intensity practice....try telling that to the soccer mom/dad you see on the elliptical at the gym every morning with the level set at 5! Additionally the lack of attention to flexibility amongst our peers is staggering. Its funny that each year at nationals I talk to at least a half dozen swimmers who STARTED stretching the week before the meet and pulled something...even more get injured because they have done nothing in this area then attempt to go 100% effort in multiple events over multiple days and staring something. Starts is probably the most neglected thing....people wait to practice them the week before a meet rather than do them at every practice then STOP doing them a week before the meet to rest the legs. I would encourage everyone who is interested in competition to really change things up for one 5-6 month training cycle and see what happens. If you can overcome the mental side of reducing Additionally and trusting your training and REALLY resting you might be surprised at the results.

But at the end of all this, all these 'elite' athletes are are physically gifted human beings. Sometimes I think that our societies values are just a _little_ skewed. Would I love to be able to do what some of these individuals can do? Yes. Then again, I would love to be able to find a cure for cancer, AIDS or one of the other thousand things that folks who aren't elite athletes work on every day. But those folks don't seem to attract our admiration in the way that these athletes do. Which is tragic. So please, at end of the day, try to keep things in perspective. Sorry, I'll put away the soapbox now. Paul

Hello everyone! I'm relatively new to this forum, and I've been informed that 30 postings are needed in order to have a custom avatar... So I might as well join the busy thread... Hmmm... What can I say that hasn't already been said? Here... Why would a master want to cheat? Trying to be under a minute for 100 free when you're 70 requires years of positive lifestyle choices, and there is no way to reach that goal without living the good life... Dara Torres has her whole life to live, and at 40, she probably understands the health risks of banned substances, so why logically could anyone assume that she is? Dara Torres is an inspiration...:notworthy:

The folks who have given their opinions on here have experienced a lot, were (are) elite level swimmers, train hard and smart, etc. : i don't think any of the elite level masters that have voiced their opinions on this thread approach the training discipline that dara has undertaken. i could be wrong but i have read lots of the blogs and posts...so correct me if i am wrong. yoga is a great cross training activity but cannot approach the benefits of assisted stretching (which i read as ART or deep tissue massage). i have said in the past that i enjoy a good practice as much as i do a good race. i would think that many masters do as well and so, do not devote 6 months or more training for a 50 or 200 at nats. it makes those who do stand out as the exceptions. dara torres is one exceptional exception.

What I am much more interested in is the alternative hypothesis: if she isn't cheating, what is she doing DIFFERENTLY that could account for her performance? I do recall that one of Ande's tip's suggest we change SOMETHING to get different results. I doubt that spending less time in the pool (relative to collegiate standards) and spending more time on core strengthening and resistance training is all that unique among master's athletes. From reading the NYTimes article, its clear that her nearly constant use of massage therapists is very unique; who among us could afford TWO full time therapists? I have no idea if this can be the critical factor. Now that is an interesting line of thought and very worthy of looking into. This is certainly one direction where this thread could be going. Discussions of drug testing techniques and why negative tests should be treated with a healthy dose of skepticism are an equally valid direction for it to take, too. However, an unsubstantiated opinion like: "Personally, I have my doubts." is neither constructive nor informative. It adds nothing to the debate at all. It is just negative and detracting. I don't know Dara and, therefore, am not qualified to comment on whether she is a cheater or not. All I am saying is that I reserve any verdict until proven otherwise. Neither am I saying that skepticism is not healthy or understandable. I welcome informed skepticism. All I am saying is that it is possible to be fair and have constructive debate at the same time. Syd

Marion Jones was the "darling" of US track and field and never tested positive. Her admission has got to be somehwat of an embarassment to WADA, FINA and USADA. Why should I as a spectator believe anyone is truly "clean" until there is greater proof that these organizations are able to more accurately test for the correct agents that are out there. Saying someone passed drug tests means less and less every year. About the only thing you can say positively is that the person wasn't stupid enough to get caught. Might I suggest that what Dara is doing is one of the greatest athletic achievements of all time....... across all sports.......... a woman of her age with such strength and speed in her 40s. No one has ever come even close to this in the pool. Is it a "natural" performance or drug assisted? ......... unfortunately, we may never know. John Smith