I'd really like an official ruling on non-US members of USMS and Top Ten times... as a current USMS member, living in Australia, likely to swim a TT time. (200 fly, SCM and/or LCM, 40-44. I've never raced a 200 before, but my 100 fly is decent. Wouldn't make USMS top ten in the 100, but might make Australian)
There is no nationality check for Canadian or Provincial records. Most Americans swim for their American club at Canadian meets but if they registered with a Canadian club they could set Canadian records.
This statement is correct. I was at the 2014 Masters Canadian Nationals last year along with 64 swimmers from the Michigan Masters Club. Swim Canada, unlike USMS keeps track of Canadian Open Records. The Michigan Masters Club set 35 Canadian Open Records. You can see all of the Canadian Open Records set by USMS swimmers linked here:
www.michiganmasters.com/.../CanadianMasters_2014_resV1.pdf
I think if you register for any FINA NGB that you are eligible for there National Records. I remember many years ago around 1991 that Rowdy Gaines was doing a clinic or something in Japan. He registered for a masters meet as a Japanese masters swimmer and set some World Records. He was listed in the record books as a swimmer from Japan even though he was not a resident of that country.
I'd really like an official ruling on non-US members of USMS and Top Ten times... as a current USMS member, living in Australia, likely to swim a TT time. (200 fly, SCM and/or LCM, 40-44. I've never raced a 200 before, but my 100 fly is decent. Wouldn't make USMS top ten in the 100, but might make Australian)
The official ruling would be that your swim would count for a USMS Top Ten Time if you represented your USMS Club in that swim. If you represented your Australian Club then it would not count. I am assuming that you have double registered with both USMS and Australia which is perfectly legal in FINA masters swimming but not in FINA swimming so this can only happen in masters. You would know what your country of Australia would do in this case and they may have the same rule that you must represent your Australian Club to get an Australian National Record and Top Ten.
Does anyone know how Canada handles this issue? I know US swimmers go to Canadian meets all the time. Could a US citizen register with Canadian Masters Swimming and set a Canadian record? That would seem an illegitimate way to get a record to me,but I am not sure how it is different from a Frenchman setting a US record, but it does seem different somehow.
There is no nationality check for Canadian or Provincial records. Most Americans swim for their American club at Canadian meets but if they registered with a Canadian club they could set Canadian records.
If anything, it's an insult to swimmers who are citizens, because it implies they aren't good enough to set records unless some small subset is barred from consideration.
+1
This is how I feel about barring "elites" from setting records too.
If anything, it's an insult to swimmers who are citizens, because it implies they aren't good enough to set records unless some small subset is barred from consideration.I don't really agree and I don't think Kurt's intention was to exclude anyone unnecessarily. It was more definitional in nature and it's a reasonable question for debate and/or clarification. I had the same thought in the lead up to Nationals. Is a USMS national record for Americans only? In USA Swimming there is an American record that only Americans can win regardless of where it is swum. I don't think the owners of those records feel insulted by their achievements. There is also a US Open record that non-Americans can earn if swum in an American meet. For example: 50 FREESTYLE
World: 20.91 Cesar Cielo, BRA Sao Paulo, BRA 12-18-09
American: 21.40sf Cullen Jones, USA Rome, ITA 08-01-09
U.S. Open: 21.14 Cesar Cielo, Auburn/BRA Indianapolis, IN 07-09-09
We all know records have gradations. World records are more impressive than national records. National records are more impressive than zone records, and so on. Because of this I think a discussion of who is eligible to set a record is valid for anything other than world record. It shouldn't be "insulting" to anyone. By definition all the records that are lesser than a world record have some additional limitations on who may set them. It just becomes a question of what exactly those limitations should be.
In USA Swimming there is an American record that only Americans can win regardless of where it is swum.
Come on, that's apples and oranges. One of the reasons that USA Swimming exists is to run the system that qualifies swimmers for the big international meets where citizenship is absolutely a factor. The parameters of the two organizations are pretty different.
No logical reason other than in the organizational name (USMS), is United States.
My "goal" would be all can participate, get top ten, and win awards. No foreign citizens get United States records. Otherwise why have records? Just have world records and yards records.
Chris seemed to imply that a check box and verification perhaps would take too much effort, so I am good with that.
I agree with Kurt and Knelson's last post. Despite the current rules, I would prefer that only US citizens have USMS national records. To me, that makes much more sense. And I don't see how it is any kind of "second class record;" it's an American record for goodness sake. The fact that USA swimming has two categories of records (national records only held by US citizens and open records held by anyone) doesn't support the USMS rule as is implied above. It makes it seem odd, and contrary to USA Swimming practices.
Since you already have to check birth dates to validate records, it doesn't seem like it would be unduly onerous to verify citizenship. For example, USMS could require the person who set the record to send a copy of his passport instead of a birth certificate, which would verify citizenship and age simultaneously.
