oh, the semantics...
a "USMS National Record" may be set by any eligible member of U.S. Masters Swimming in good standing regardless of citizenship.
We don't have anything called "American" records. If we did, and the key word here is "American," then I think the citizenship debate should be opened.
Regardless, there are how many records set every year? (very few)
By how many swimmers? (even fewer)
And of those, how many might not be U.S. Citizens? (rare)
Not sure this is worth too much discussion.
People keep quoting the rulebook...I got it. There is not "American" in USMS but there is United States which I believe is short for United States of America. I agree it is a rare occurrence but so is urinating in public, pedophilia, and murder but there are rules against these. Fortunately, I am not in danger of ever breaking any national records (sorry USMS records!), but I suppose the people that it affects might care and think it worth some discussion (but perhaps not).
People keep quoting the rulebook...This may have something to do with your choice of thread title “rule on records” and your original post (paraphrasing – can a foreign citizen set a USMS national record)
We have many USMS members who are citizens of other countries. It would not be practical to check everyone's citizenship
I could be wrong, but I don't think Kurt is implying only U.S. citizens be allowed in USMS. What he IS suggesting is that only U.S. citizens be eligible for USMS national records. In this case you would not have to "check everyone's citizenship," you would only need to check the citizenship of those who broke records. And since birth date is already being checked, would there really be a lot more effort to check citizenship?
Since we haven't received any meet results from our space probes or UFOs, USMS Short Course Earth Records would do for now.
Evidently Missy Franklin has the 25 backstroke record for Mars.
swimswam.com/.../
;)
This may have something to do with your choice of thread title “rule on records” and your original post (paraphrasing – can a foreign citizen set a USMS national record)
Thanks for clarifying...you are right I did put "rule" in my thread title. Since we have had at least 4 rule quotes on this thread, I thought we had moved on to debating the merits of the rule. Since we have moved out of the hypothetical, I suppose Mr. Granger probably does not care whether he has a United States record as he is French and I would think he would only care about French and World Records. My only point was that I found it odd that citizens of other countries could earn United States' (Masters Swimming) records. I am clearly in the minority and I'm ok if nobody wants to talk about it ever again.
I could be wrong, but I don't think Kurt is implying only U.S. citizens be allowed in USMS. What he IS suggesting is that only U.S. citizens be eligible for USMS national records. In this case you would not have to "check everyone's citizenship," you would only need to check the citizenship of those who broke records. And since birth date is already being checked, would there really be a lot more effort to check citizenship?
The increase in effort would be significant. The reason is that birthdates only need to be proven once and then the proof is kept on file; most swimmers who break USMS records do so more than once. They would effectively be required to submit documentation EACH time they break a record; right now they just have to do so once and the record documentation thereafter is submitted by the meet director and/or the Top 10 recorder.
But these days one can store the proof electronically and email them to Walt Reid. Sure they can be doctored, but what can't nowadays. So the extra effort might not be all that bad. Practically speaking, I suspect the result is that more USMS Record applications than now would fail through lack of supporting documentation and missing the deadline (it happens), and there would be complaints.
But Kurt didn't mention just records but also national championships. And the same reasoning that would limit USMS records to US citizens would also apply to Top 10 lists, at least as far as I can tell. It is impractical to require proof of citizenship for such cases.
The only thing that might work is adding a checkbox to the USMS Registration process: "Are you a US citizen?" or some such. Sure it would be on the person's honor to tell the truth, but we are already there with age. And no one ever lies about that, right?
When results are uploaded they are checked against the registration database, and swims by foreigners could be flagged as ineligible for whatever we see fit. Similarly, if a meet has online registration, swimmers can be identified beforehand as ineligible for awards or whatnot.
Probably doable, though Jim M would have to weigh in. Mind you, I am not advocating for such a rule but I would rather have it debated on its merits if that is at all possible.
Fortunately, I am not in danger of ever breaking any national records (sorry USMS records!), but I suppose the people that it affects might care and think it worth some discussion (but perhaps not).
I think you're selling yourself short...
I could be wrong, but I don't think Kurt is implying only U.S. citizens be allowed in USMS. What he IS suggesting is that only U.S. citizens be eligible for USMS national records. In this case you would not have to "check everyone's citizenship," you would only need to check the citizenship of those who broke records. And since birth date is already being checked, would there really be a lot more effort to check citizenship?
USMS is an organization for people over the age of 18 who swim and compete in the United States, regardless of their country of origin or passport. USMS National Record simply means the fastest time swum in a USMS sanctioned meet. There's simply no logical reason for the organization to decide that citizenship suddenly matters in this one thing when it's not a relevant factor in whether a person can be a member or swim in a meet.
If anything, it's an insult to swimmers who are citizens, because it implies they aren't good enough to set records unless some small subset is barred from consideration.
Does anyone know how Canada handles this issue? I know US swimmers go to Canadian meets all the time. Could a US citizen register with Canadian Masters Swimming and set a Canadian record? That would seem an illegitimate way to get a record to me,but I am not sure how it is different from a Frenchman setting a US record, but it does seem different somehow.
