There's simply no logical reason for the organization to decide that citizenship suddenly matters in this one thing when it's not a relevant factor in whether a person can be a member or swim in a meet.
If anything, it's an insult to swimmers who are citizens, because it implies they aren't good enough to set records unless some small subset is barred from consideration.
No logical reason other than in the organizational name (USMS), is United States. As has been stated, my goal was not exclusion and not meant to be an insult to foreigners who were not born under the umbrella of this great country with its ready access to amazing water parks and weapons.
My "goal" would be all can participate, get top ten, and win awards. However, if at nationals, a foreign citizen wins, then two 1st place medals are provided but only one national champion. No foreign citizens get United States records. Otherwise why have records? Just have world records and yards records.
Chris seemed to imply that a check box and verification perhaps would take too much effort, so I am good with that. I will just say that if the illustrious Frenchman that inspired this thread wants them, there are several USMS records, yards and meters, up for grabs. Perhaps if anybody wants to sponsor my travel, there are likely some Zimbabwe masters records with my name on them.
Come on, that's apples and oranges. The parameters of the two organizations are pretty different.
USA swimming governs swimming in United States and USMS governs Masters swimming in...oh yeah, United States. Apples and Oranges indeed!
Also, in case you hadn’t noticed, the US in USA Swimming is also an abbreviation for United States and a number of the USA Swimming United States Open records are held by foreign citizens.
USA Swimming United States Open records are meet records with a nice title not National records, which can only be held by U.S. citizens (I believe this is still the case). USMS records are labeled "national" records (i.e. labeled (N)), this seems to conflict with the USA terminology.
USA Swimming United States Open records are meet records with a nice title not National records, which can only be held by U.S. citizens (I believe this is still the case). USMS records are labeled "national" records (i.e. labeled (N)), this seems to conflict with the USA terminology.USA Swimming "American Records" are set by USA citizens, regardless of where they are set (in the USA or another FINA federation country).
Perhaps if anybody wants to sponsor my travel, there are likely some Zimbabwe masters records with my name on them.Funny you should say this because I did set some national records in the Kingdom of Swaziland when I was in the Peace Corps. Maybe we need to do a swim-round-the-world-and-break-records trip?
No logical reason other than in the organizational name (USMS), is United States.
Or maybe the logical reason is somewhere along the lines of USA Swimming where United States open records “May be established only within the geographical territory of the United States by any person eligible to compete” regardless of place of birth or citizenship. Also, in case you hadn’t noticed, the US in USA Swimming is also an abbreviation for United States and a number of the USA Swimming United States Open records are held by foreign citizens.
My "goal" would be all can participate, get top ten, and win awards. However, if at nationals, a foreign citizen wins, then two 1st place medals are provided but only one national champion. No foreign citizens get United States records. The main problem with this goal is that it is in violation of USMS rules. May I suggest that you rethink your goal and have the goal be more along the line of changing the rules to establish a second class of record?
Chris seemed to imply that a check box and verification perhaps would take too much effort…I imagine verification would take some effort, I’m not sure how much is too much. But it would be totally wasted effort under our current rules, where no check box or verification is needed.
Rob, you confuse me. The first few replies 2 plus weeks ago illuminated the rules. I was just clarifying my position, debating the rule, and wondering out loud about the effort required to verify citizenship if the rule was changed. Be assured I do understand under current rules anybody with USMS card can break records, win championships, and not prove citizenship.:)
ah rules.
it is so fun when you actually read them and learn something new.
and yet upsetting when it's been handled wrong all along.
Foreign Swimmer—athlete member of a FINA member federation other
than USMS.
2015 U.S. Masters Swimming Rule Book Page xiii
104.5.4 Entry Procedures
A Eligibility/affiliation
(2) Foreign swimmers—National championship meets shall include
and welcome foreign swimmers, except that they may not qualify
for USMS Top 10 and All-American awards nor set USMS national
records.
Page 32 2015 U.S. Masters Swimming Rule Book
thus, a member of another FINA member federation cannot hold a USMS national record.
Chris, i think you have some cleanup work to do!
No Chris does not. All of these statements are true what you are missing is if the athlete is USMS Registered. Foreign swimmers are swimmers that are registered with a FINA Member Federation and not with USMS. Because FINA and USMS have no restrictions on having to register for only one FINA Federation, you could not exclude a USMS member from 104.5.4 (2) because as a member of USMS, they are entitled to everything that a USMS member is entitled to. I am not sure if Nicolas Granger has a dual affiliation but if he does and represents his registered USMS Club, which is Rose Bowl and not the Foreign Registered Club, then he is entitled to everything that you as a USMS member are entitled to.
That rule that you are quoting from is for Foreign swimmers registered with there foreign FINA Member Federation and representing that Club. An example is if Nicolas Granger registered for the Nationals under his French FINA Member Federation Club, then yes this rule that you quote would be true but he didn't so this rule would not be enforceable and would be false.
As you bring this up, this points to another problem with keeping track of athlete registrations. There is no rule in the World that's enforced by FINA or any of the FINA Member Federations that states you can only be registered for one nation and represent that one nation in the Masters swimming rules. In FINA Swimming this is enforced and you are not allowed to represent more than one FINA Member Federation and you must be a citizen of the country you are representing. They enforce this and it just cannot be done like it is in Masters Swimming. There is no World Data Base of Masters swimmers in the world so you couldn't even enforce this if you tried. Masters Swimming is live and let live and you basically can do anything you want as far as registration for multiple countries.
You could represent any of the multiple counties you wanted at any meet and be eligible for the records in that country because you represented that countries club in the countries competition either in a Nationals or a local meet. So this rule or lack of would have to change and that would require a FINA Rule change at the FINA Masters Congress. If there is not excellent rational for changing any FINA rule, then I have been told it would be like running into a brick wall and you would be wasting your time and effort to try to change this.
USA Swimming United States Open records are meet records
No they aren't. They are the fastest times ever swum on U.S. soil (or in U.S. water, I guess!).
