The Butterfly Lane

Ok, Forumites, have at it. I don't know if today's video shows any improvement over the other times I have posted on this thread, but I would like to have whatever feedback you throw my way. I keep trying to press my chest without my arms going down too far with it, and I keep trying to not pike so much at the hips. Although my feet don't come out as far as they used to, I see that I still need to keep my kick from coming out as far as it does. Any and all constructive feedback will be welcomed and most appreciated! Swim Doc? King Frog?? Anybody else??? THANKS! :) www.youtube.com/watch WhZ6rpd_e2VRE8lzIvNSA1B

Elaine, I struggle with all of my strokes, so take my comment with a grain of salt. But it looks like you are taking your second kick while your arms are still out front. Others may correct me, but I think you are supposed to time your second kick to coincide with the exit of your arms. One arm fly drills, and what I call “stone skipper “ ( underwater recovery) might help with timing the second kick.

Elaine, I struggle with all of my strokes, so take my comment with a grain of salt. But it looks like you are taking your second kick while your arms are still out front. Others may correct me, but I think you are supposed to time your second kick to coincide with the exit of your arms. One arm fly drills, and what I call “stone skipper “ ( underwater recovery) might help with timing the second kick. Check out this video starting at the 35:15 mark where you can compare my timing to Terry Laughlin and another swimmer he is using in his "Total Immersion" video. My kick is obviously awful compared to their kicks; however, I am not sure the timing is the worst part of my stroke. www.youtube.com/watch I appreciate your input, and I would love to hear more from the other Forumites!

Check out this video starting at the 35:15 mark where you can compare my timing to Terry Laughlin and another swimmer he is using in his "Total Immersion" video. My kick is obviously awful compared to their kicks; however, I am not sure the timing is the worst part of my stroke. I appreciate your input, and I would love to hear more from the other Forumites! [/QUOTE Well, she is right about the kick but you looked smoother in your storke. Its hard to time the 2 kicks. I tend to have more of a one beat kick too.

Hi Elaine, Normally the second kick occurs when the hands exit the water. However you might want to checkout Yuya Yajima's butterfly stroke. He swims very much like you and is a very fast Japanese swimmer. Here is a link to a article with video on his stroke. They mention another Master swimmer who swims this way. swimswam.com/.../ I think that your stroke is much smoother and flatter than before.

Hi Elaine, I think the kick timing should be kick as the hands go out, kick as the hands go in? Your second kick looks a little late, it’s happening after your hands go in. I think the second kick should be just before your hands enter the water. Also stick your butt into the air more when your hands enter.:) Thanks for checking out the video and posting your feedback. I appreciate it! I think what's happening is that I have been working on trying to land with soft hands, so my kick is pausing while I concentrate on the hands. It's the can't walk and chew gum at the same time syndrome! Having said that, I probably still do it the same way when I am not concentrating on my hands... As for my butt, if you happened to see earlier versions of my fly, my butt did go up in the air more; however, Swim Doc noticed I was picking too much at the waist, so I have been trying to initiate the undulation more with my chest and trying to avoid going down with my stroke. Hopefully, I can find a happier medium in there somewhere! Hi Elaine, Normally the second kick occurs when the hands exit the water. However you might want to checkout Yuya Yajima's butterfly stroke. He swims very much like you and is a very fast Japanese swimmer. Here is a link to a article with video on his stroke. They mention another Master swimmer who swims this way. swimswam.com/.../ I think that your stroke is much smoother and flatter than before. Hey there, ganache! Thank for your much appreciated feedback, too! I'm glad my stroke is looking smoother than before! I have seen that video before; I think it was in pwindrath's thread. I do try to swim with a more stretched out glide, because I swim the 200 fly and 400 IM, rather than sprints. My goal is more survival, rather than speed! Watching the underwater video, my kick timing does appear to be like Yajima's. Topside view of his stroke? That guy must have Janet Evans-like shoulders to be able to recover like that. OUCH! I also think my kick timing is similar to Terry Laughlin's, because I have studied his video, "Better Fly for Every Body." If you watch his timing, his hands are definitely back in the water before his down kick. This is how I learned fly in the first place. My part-time coach uses Total Immersion technique for coaching Masters-level swimmers.

I swim with a 71-year old 200 butterflyer that does a similar thing to the Yajima stroke too. I think I see a couple things going on with you... first, it looks like your elbows are dropping out in front. If you're going to do the longer glide stroke, it is super important that you keep your elbows high so you can get as long and powerful of a pull as possible - it'll also help you drive forward on the second kick. The other thing I see is, on the kick as the hands enter the water, you are focusing too much on lifting your hips with the kick and not enough on using it to propel yourself forward. I hope this makes sense, I am terrible at trying to explain technique things without being able to talk with my hands :P Also, by butterfly is an absolute mess right now so take this with a grain of salt!

Hi Elaine, I think the kick timing should be kick as the hands go out, kick as the hands go in? Your second kick looks a little late, it’s happening after your hands go in. I think the second kick should be just before your hands enter the water. Also stick your butt into the air more when your hands enter.:)

I swim with a 71-year old 200 butterflyer that does a similar thing to the Yajima stroke too. I think I see a couple things going on with you... first, it looks like your elbows are dropping out in front. If you're going to do the longer glide stroke, it is super important that you keep your elbows high so you can get as long and powerful of a pull as possible - it'll also help you drive forward on the second kick. The other thing I see is, on the kick as the hands enter the water, you are focusing too much on lifting your hips with the kick and not enough on using it to propel yourself forward. I hope this makes sense, I am terrible at trying to explain technique things without being able to talk with my hands :P Also, by butterfly is an absolute mess right now so take this with a grain of salt! Thanks for your input, JP. I've taken note of the elbows and hips and start thinking about those two issues as I practice my fly. Focusing on going forward (rather than down) has been a challenge for me; however, I keep trying!

Either you forgot the link to the "this video" you reference or I'm an idiot and can't figure out it. Not sure, either is plausible. www.youtube.com/watch Anyway, more generically, I find *** stroke to be an unbelievably hard stroke to swim as far as coordination and all of that. Fly has always been one of those that just feels right. Was reading this a day or two ago, and it occurred to me that I have no idea what my stroke is like when I try to pace myself for a 400IM or a 200 fly (I have started trying to copy Yajima to a degree). As fortune would have it, I was doing some IM work this morning, so I tried to pay attention to what I was doing wihtout really thinking about it. In any fly, the kick, at least to me, is not a deliberate motion. It is the extension of the body as it is positioned from the shoulders. If I say that the stroke starts when the hands enter the water, then the beginning of the stroke involves the entry of the hands, and the subsequent chin tuck and driving the head under and through the water. That motion almost creates an undulation wiht the body that ends with the first kick. Hands are still in front. I think that where things diverge is that for my shorter fly, I'll force my arms to start my pull. The second kick is usually softer, it seems to be like your body is like a spring oscillating and when the wave gets to teh end, that's when the kick occurs. On the longer events, I don't force my pull that early. I wait until that "second oscillation" goes, and I'll feel the kick come, and when it does, I'll use it to initiate my pull. So both have the primary kick when hands enter. Short fly, the secondary usually comes as hands finish the pull and begin recovery, but the longer fly, the kick is at the pull initiation. Not sure if that makes sense, again, I don't think about it, and I'm trying to remember how I was feeling it this morning. It looks to me in your video, and I'm not an expert by any means, that your shoulders are working with one body oscillation, but that at your hips, your lower body is on some different oscillation. It looks disjointed if you will. I'm guessing you are thinking about what you are doing, and not letting your body just naturally progress. Does that make sense? I'm inclined to tell you to try to swim it and not think, but rather feel. I hope if my uneducated opinion here is misguided that someone will correct me. But I think that is what generally goes on. You were definitely the idiot, 67; it was there the entire time! ;) Seriously, I was the idiot for forgetting to insert the link! Sorry about that! I went back to that post and included the video rather than just the link. Regarding what you wrote about my kick, the only thing I think about when I am swimming fly is trying to keep my legs and feet in the water. My first and second kick used to look like Yajima's first kick where almost his entire lower legs are out of the water. Now, it's not quite that extreme, although my second kick still comes out of the water. When I am not thinking about my kick and letting it flow naturally, my feet go back to going out of the water too much, because that is my natural, relaxed stroke. I look most like those distance butterfly ocean swimmers you may have scene on video. It is not efficient for speed, though, so I am trying to flatten and smooth at out more. The problem with that? I don't feel like I am getting ANY power out of my kick. The advantage of swimming butterfly "wrong"? Endurance! As an example, this is what I can do with my "incorrect" style of fly: www.grinswim.org/.../butternuts.html (Scroll down to my avatar & "Elaine Krugman). P.S. Thank you very much for your feedback! :D