The Butterfly Lane

Check out this video starting at the 35:15 mark where you can compare my timing to Terry Laughlin and another swimmer he is using in his "Total Immersion" video. My kick is obviously awful compared to their kicks; however, I am not sure the timing is the worst part of my stroke. I appreciate your input, and I would love to hear more from the other Forumites! Either you forgot the link to the "this video" you reference or I'm an idiot and can't figure out it. Not sure, either is plausible. Anyway, more generically, I find *** stroke to be an unbelievably hard stroke to swim as far as coordination and all of that. Fly has always been one of those that just feels right. Was reading this a day or two ago, and it occurred to me that I have no idea what my stroke is like when I try to pace myself for a 400IM or a 200 fly (I have started trying to copy Yajima to a degree). As fortune would have it, I was doing some IM work this morning, so I tried to pay attention to what I was doing wihtout really thinking about it. In any fly, the kick, at least to me, is not a deliberate motion. It is the extension of the body as it is positioned from the shoulders. If I say that the stroke starts when the hands enter the water, then the beginning of the stroke involves the entry of the hands, and the subsequent chin tuck and driving the head under and through the water. That motion almost creates an undulation wiht the body that ends with the first kick. Hands are still in front. I think that where things diverge is that for my shorter fly, I'll force my arms to start my pull. The second kick is usually softer, it seems to be like your body is like a spring oscillating and when the wave gets to teh end, that's when the kick occurs. On the longer events, I don't force my pull that early. I wait until that "second oscillation" goes, and I'll feel the kick come, and when it does, I'll use it to initiate my pull. So both have the primary kick when hands enter. Short fly, the secondary usually comes as hands finish the pull and begin recovery, but the longer fly, the kick is at the pull initiation. Not sure if that makes sense, again, I don't think about it, and I'm trying to remember how I was feeling it this morning. It looks to me in your video, and I'm not an expert by any means, that your shoulders are working with one body oscillation, but that at your hips, your lower body is on some different oscillation. It looks disjointed if you will. I'm guessing you are thinking about what you are doing, and not letting your body just naturally progress. Does that make sense? I'm inclined to tell you to try to swim it and not think, but rather feel. I hope if my uneducated opinion here is misguided that someone will correct me. But I think that is what generally goes on.

Hi Elaine, JP and Dan are pointing out common issues occurring as and right after the hands land on the water. I always try to think of my hands landing on the water rather than entering the water. This keeps them from going too deep and shortening my pull. The two things you can focus on are the "Press" and the "Catch". Here are some presentation materials that cover this in great detail with photos. The first are slides and the second is the actual presentation. This presentation were given by Russell Mark at the USOTC in Colorado Springs and was a live webinar. I live in Colorado Springs and could attend the talk. They usually invite local coaches and I coach a Masters swimming team in Colorado Springs. www.usaswimming.org/.../5-22-13-butterfly-technique---russel-mark.pdf usaswimming.adobeconnect.com/.../ In the "Press" photos you can see that at entry the elbows are not dropped but hands are higher than elbows. As the swimmers transition to the "Catch" you can see that all of the swimmers have their hands below their elbows (high elbows). I remember at a USA Swimming butterfly clinic I attended that the speaker mentioned that Michael Phelps felt like his hands were stuck in a bucket of sand in this position - he could get so much resistance in the water. One thing I learned from this talk was that during the catch you want to be looking forward, not down. Here is the USA Swimming web page with all of the training technique presentations given at the USOTC. I have shared these on the discussion forums before but I think that they are a great resource of technique tips so I'll post them again. All of the ones by Russell Mark are great. Hope all this is helpful! www.usaswimming.org/.../online-clinic-series---training-technique

JP has hit on the two things I saw so I will elaborate a bit. If you stop the video about halfway you will see your elbows drop and your forearms parallel to the surface of the water. So two things: Your upper arm is now creating frontal drag and the next part of your pull is essentially down with your hands instead of back to your hips. Try to think of your hands and arms forming a diamond shape with the hands not touching but well within the shoulders. This is your most powerful position, which you can prove to yourself by simply pushing down on a railing or the top of a ladder in the pool, than accelerate back to the hips. The hand speed in fly, like in free, is not one speed but a acceleration under your body. Regarding the kick, try to think of it more as a whip with the feet the tip that goes faster as the whip is cracked. A bit more knee bend might help. If you kick with a board you can experiment a bit on your own. Right now I don't think you are getting much forward push out of the kick. Hi there, Dan! :wave: Thanks for weighing in! You are the first person to ever point that out about my hips at that part of my stroke. I played it frame-by-frame and I now see that! I have been trying to get my forearms in, and I can't figure out why I haven't succeeded, especially since I am a natural breaststroker, and I am much better at that stroke. As for keeping a high elbow, that is physically difficult for me to do, because of the stress it puts on my shoulders. I am unable to keep them high in any of my strokes, because of physical issues I have had with my shoulders in the past that are unrelated to swimming. Today, my husband shot another video of my fly before I read your post. My goal today was to eliminate the kerplunk sound of my kick, smooth out my down kick a bit more, and try to carry my stroke more forward. Here is the result: www.youtube.com/watch In doing so, I felt like I lost even more power in my kick, so I have to figure that out. Next, I will work more on my arms!

Hi Elaine, JP and Dan are pointing out common issues occurring as and right after the hands land on the water. I always try to think of my hands landing on the water rather than entering the water. This keeps them from going too deep and shortening my pull. The two things you can focus on are the "Press" and the "Catch". Here are some presentation materials that cover this in great detail with photos. The first are slides and the second is the actual presentation. This presentation were given by Russell Mark at the USOTC in Colorado Springs and was a live webinar. I live in Colorado Springs and could attend the talk. They usually invite local coaches and I coach a Masters swimming team in Colorado Springs. www.usaswimming.org/.../5-22-13-butterfly-technique---russel-mark.pdf usaswimming.adobeconnect.com/.../ In the "Press" photos you can see that at entry the elbows are not dropped but hands are higher than elbows. As the swimmers transition to the "Catch" you can see that all of the swimmers have their hands below their elbows (high elbows). I remember at a USA Swimming butterfly clinic I attended that the speaker mentioned that Michael Phelps felt like his hands were stuck in a bucket of sand in this position - he could get so much resistance in the water. One thing I learned from this talk was that during the catch you want to be looking forward, not down. Here is the USA Swimming web page with all of the training technique presentations given at the USOTC. I have shared these on the discussion forums before but I think that they are a great resource of technique tips so I'll post them again. All of the ones by Russell Mark are great. Hope all this is helpful! www.usaswimming.org/.../online-clinic-series---training-technique Thanks for the links, ganache! The slides are excellent, so I will study those. You're right; I have been looking down instead of forward at the wrong time in my stroke. I need to start sticking my chin out sooner, which should be an easy fix. High elbows? Not so much. I have great flexibility, so that's not the issue. It's the resistance on my shoulders in that position that concerns me. In breaststroke, I pull deeper, because of that issue. The Adobe Connect link says it's a breaststroke presentation; however, I will listen to it when I have a block of time, because I'm a breaststroker! I can't wait until I have more time to delve into the third link. The list of topics looks great! Thanks so much for all three links and your tips! My biggest takeaway is, "...during the catch you want to be looking forward, not down."

Hi Elaine, I must have pasted the wrong link. Here is the one for the butterfly presentation recording. usaswimming.adobeconnect.com/.../ Like you I am a breaststroker! But I need butterfly so I can swim the IM's.

Hi Elaine, I must have pasted the wrong link. Here is the one for the butterfly presentation recording. usaswimming.adobeconnect.com/.../ Like you I am a breaststroker! But I need butterfly so I can swim the IM's. Exactly! In addition to the three breaststroke races, I like to add the 400 IM and 200 Fly to my line-up. Thanks for the correct link; now I'll have both! Hey, I don't know if I have asked you this before, but, off topic, would "ganache" happen to be a reference to chocolate ganache, by any chance? :D P.S. Since you are also a coach and a great swimmer, I really appreciate your feedback. I feel fortunate to have coaches and great swimmers replying for my plea for help! :whiteflag:

To Cinc and Betty: In my previous videos, I shared the link to Terry Laughlin's fly video and compared the timing of my kick to his. Now, when I think about it, I was referring to the wrong kick. :blush: I was comparing my first kick rather than second. When I reviewed his video, he has a VERY small second kick rather than the two kicks being equal in size and power.

Hi there, Dan! :wave: Thanks for weighing in! You are the first person to ever point that out about my hips at that part of my stroke. I played it frame-by-frame and I now see that! I have been trying to get my forearms in, and I can't figure out why I haven't succeeded, especially since I am a natural breaststroker, and I am much better at that stroke. As for keeping a high elbow, that is physically difficult for me to do, because of the stress it puts on my shoulders. I am unable to keep them high in any of my strokes, because of physical issues I have had with my shoulders in the past that are unrelated to swimming. Today, my husband shot another video of my fly before I read your post. My goal today was to eliminate the kerplunk sound of my kick, smooth out my down kick a bit more, and try to carry my stroke more forward. Here is the result: www.youtube.com/edit In doing so, I felt like I lost even more power in my kick, so I have to figure that out. Next, I will work more on my arms! Sorry but U tube video didn't open like your first one did. I would imagine from your description that you "smoothed out the down kick" by kicking slower. In pulling hand speed determines your forward speed. In kicking free and fly the only forward motion is when the feet are bent from the water pressure on the top of the top than spring back like a fin at the end of the down kick. Try kicking harder to feel a bit more pressure on the top of the foot. The better swimmers also try to get some power from the up kick by feeling pressure on the bottom of their feet. Also when you kick faster the next kick will have harder water to press against yielding more force forward. Fish get this as their tails go back and forth. Regarding your shoulder on the pull of course injury avoidance is always #1 and everything else is a distant second. Just try as best you can and repeat this in your head as you pull: Fingers below the wrist-wrist below elbow. Only pressure on the palms pushing backwards gets you moving forwards.

Sorry but U tube video didn't open like your first one did. I would imagine from your description that you "smoothed out the down kick" by kicking slower. In pulling hand speed determines your forward speed. In kicking free and fly the only forward motion is when the feet are bent from the water pressure on the top of the top than spring back like a fin at the end of the down kick. Try kicking harder to feel a bit more pressure on the top of the foot. The better swimmers also try to get some power from the up kick by feeling pressure on the bottom of their feet. Also when you kick faster the next kick will have harder water to press against yielding more force forward. Fish get this as their tails go back and forth. Regarding your shoulder on the pull of course injury avoidance is always #1 and everything else is a distant second. Just try as best you can and repeat this in your head as you pull: Fingers below the wrist-wrist below elbow. Only pressure on the palms pushing backwards gets you moving forwards. Sorry I didn't talk about the enclosed picture. Yes It's Ms Ledecky. Notice how far forward her hand is but the palm is facing backwards already. I am working on this. Hard to do but a good goal.

I swim with a 71-year old 200 butterflyer that does a similar thing to the Yajima stroke too. I think I see a couple things going on with you... first, it looks like your elbows are dropping out in front. If you're going to do the longer glide stroke, it is super important that you keep your elbows high so you can get as long and powerful of a pull as possible - it'll also help you drive forward on the second kick. The other thing I see is, on the kick as the hands enter the water, you are focusing too much on lifting your hips with the kick and not enough on using it to propel yourself forward. I hope this makes sense, I am terrible at trying to explain technique things without being able to talk with my hands :P Also, by butterfly is an absolute mess right now so take this with a grain of salt! JP has hit on the two things I saw so I will elaborate a bit. If you stop the video about halfway you will see your elbows drop and your forearms parallel to the surface of the water. So two things: Your upper arm is now creating frontal drag and the next part of your pull is essentially down with your hands instead of back to your hips. Try to think of your hands and arms forming a diamond shape with the hands not touching but well within the shoulders. This is your most powerful position, which you can prove to yourself by simply pushing down on a railing or the top of a ladder in the pool, than accelerate back to the hips. The hand speed in fly, like in free, is not one speed but a acceleration under your body. Regarding the kick, try to think of it more as a whip with the feet the tip that goes faster as the whip is cracked. A bit more knee bend might help. If you kick with a board you can experiment a bit on your own. Right now I don't think you are getting much forward push out of the kick.