Approach to teaching competitive swimming?

In Colwin's "Swimming Dynamics", he brings up the point that the same drill can have different purpose for different people: "At the beginning level, stroke drills should teach the fundamentals of technique... A little later, the beginner will be shown shaping drills that teach the more refined aspects of stroke technique such as hand, elbow, and wrist postures, head-turning mechanics, and so on. "The entire process outlined above can be categorized as 'teaching technique'... However, at the level of the mature competitor, drills should focus on improving the swimmer's stoke output... In other words, the emphasis is on stroke production." (much later) "Remember, it is possible to become an expert at doing drills without improving your normal stroke." (He is not against drills! The preceeding paragraph had a quote from John Carew, coach of Kieren Perkins, who stressed the importance of drills, especially during taper.) "...Therefore, it is important that every drill should be done with a purpose in mind."

He Wayne, use that writers bug and post at this site and discuss some of the issues that concern you and other swimmers, instead of flaming on Ion. I have posted several comments (on 'pause', roll from the hip, etc.) that I both believe in and also thought were issues to both you and Emmett. I remain disappointed that neither of you have deigned to respond for a legitimate discussion on "Approach to teaching competitive swimming?" That thread on underwater pullout *you* should really pay attention to, in fact, I will go there now and tell you why.

Ion, In my humble opinion, You sure as heck disrupt these forums with misinformation. Sometimes I am amazed at the numbers of quote you come up with, the sheer variety and spread of quotes. Debating you is futile, unfortunately so is ignoring you. Please make one logical reason why your opinion of the TI teaching method is justified. No quotes, just scientific facts from The Journal of Swimming Research or similiar literature. Your opinion of coaching methods means nothing to me, because you are not a coach, certified or not. You are not exposed to actual coaching classes, nor the latest information such as World Clinics. Your arguments are of two types, Post Hoc Fallacy and Argumentum Ad Ignorantiam. Neither are valid. The problem I have is that people lend creedance to people who use quotes and statistics, like you may be an authority. You left a whole bunch af statistics to Jeff, and then alluded to "into these facts above". But please tell me what you were trying to prove? And how does your "facts" relate to anyone swimming faster? The statistics of the 50 free you are quoting don't mean anything. There would be meaning in the distances were equal, say both times to 8.0 meters. That is why the rest of the world lists times to 15 meters, time into and out of a turn at 5 meters, and the time for the last 5 meters. A better comparison would be the Torpedo breakout time and time to 15 meters versus Gary Hall, which I again say is a bad example of how coaches want to improve USA swimming. I often bring up a swimming series that was on TV perhaps 1991? It was Mark Spitz vs. Matt Biondi and Tom Jager. Spitz actually had a faster time off the block and into the water, but in both races Jager and Biondi did a great single whole dive, and with more velocity and better streamlining came up one body length ahead of Spitz. The race was over. Yet both got waxed by Popov, the Russians came up with a great start and then 2-3 small dolphins underwater before coming up. Our swimmers still used flutter kick for the next 6-8 years. But in 2000 our swimmers caught on and did the dolphins like the rest of the world. That is information directly relating to swimming faster races. I still challenge you to take a TI course, see if you get faster. You have the speed to do much faster in that 800 meter free. Better technique is where improvement resides. People have commented about seeing your stroke, there is much room for improvement. What do you have to loose? There is nothing better than getting faster at 43-44. If you drop your time by 20 seconds in the 800 I will be happy to call you Fast Ion. That's dropping one second off the start and dive, 0.5 seconds off each turn by streamlining, and only 1.39 seconds per length. Now the Opinions above are mine alone, like Emmett says just my 2 cents worth. Please do not call your verbage (facts and statistics) anything other than your OPINION. I then would not have such a problem with your discussions. Coach Wayne McCauley ASCA Level 5 Masters Coach USMS All American 4 times USMS National Champion 17 years in a row USMS Top 10 (It took lots of luck on that one) I started late in my swimming, and was faster at 49 than 43! PS Phil, you know I never understood what Ion was getting at, but I will agree that DPS and SR are not the things we should be loking at as swimmers or coaches. Boy that is simple words with no statistics. Again my opinion.

Ion, When I had posted that I was confused from your earlier post about Ervin and Hall distance per cycle it was because you had both Ervin and Hall at 2.18 meters per cycle at the beginning of your posting and 2.18 for Hall and 2.17 for Ervin towards the end - I have noticed that after my comment you went back and edited that post to read that Ervin was at 2.17 (instead of 2.18)at the beginning, so you're welcome. Once again in regards to Joachums quote of drills, is taken out of context - Wouldn't doing race simulation and modifying your race be a drill ? I think that when working with these top swimmers the standard drills to find balance, body position etc. are not needed because they have all ready acquired these skills/traits by them (natural talent or hard work). I remember reading about when Torres started thinking about swimming again there was a total restructuring of her stroke - including the use of drills (I believe the quote was 'we don't swim like that anymore'). Final thought I think I have come to the root of your displeasure of TI "things that TI condones are no fun" (like swimming faster with less effort, swimming injury free or at least with less chance of injury). I think you are looking for a sure thing, the only two I can give you are death and taxes - everything else in life is a gamble, looking at your past what have you got to lose by trying to incorporate some of the TI philosophy.

Thank you Rain Man and Mattson and others for bringing sanity into this discussion. I would really like to get into a discussion on both starts and breaststroke underwater strokes. Much more interesting. Swimming is not about statistics and never will be. It is about applying our human needs for betterment into swimming faster. That takes time, effort, will power and intelligence from both the swimmers and the coaches. There is so much talk about SR and SL, but what most people don't realize is the pendulum is swinging back to coaches of elite swimmers asking for more stroke rate at the same stroke length!!! You might ask why? Lets go back to basics without statistics. How does one go faster in the water? 1) Get stronger 2) Become more flexible so strength can be applied longer 3) Better technique so power can be applied more efficiently 4) Become more streamlined so resistance is less. 5) Become more fit so power can be applied longer These are the basics that have improved over the last 30 years since Mark Spitz swam. How does this apply to Masters swimmers? 1) Most Masters need more strength, especially core body strength. When strength is tested on Olympic male swimmers, the winners are usually NOT the strongest in the field. Women have learned from the men and are now MUCH stronger, especially core body. 2) Flexibility is lost as we age, starting at about age 10! So we can make up some flexibility but to really gain Masters must spend hours per day. Yoga and Pilates are now very popular; swimmers see a direct correlation into faster swimming. Among Olympic swimmers, the winners are almost ALWAYS the most flexible. Mark Spitz and Matt Biondi were off the chart. Janet Evans broke the chart when it comes to chest flexibility, the ability to expand the chest and lungs greater than any other measured athlete in any sport. 3) Technique is the only area that real gains have been made, mostly with ideas like core body use, head alignment, balance, better under standing of using streamlining. 4) Streamlining is much better both off the starts and turns, but also during the actual strokes. That is why even the fastest freestylers have a PAUSE in front where they are shaping and using their body in a LONGBOAT fashion to gain speed during that small pause. There has been much bantering about the PAUSE, but there it is in Popov, Hall, and Ervin etc. So could TI be right? Strong 440 just posted an old Doc quote which is EXACTLY the same, just said differently "From the moment the hand is made to change direction from its full extension (beginning the recovery) it is in a balistic mode and remains so until until it is time to begin its "pull" 5) Become more fit? Yes, what we now learn in physiology schools is light years different than ten years ago. Yet the great swimmers of 20 years ago were probably just as fit, just as strong and just as flexible as the greats of today. Masters swimmers can only go so far, we breakdown from twice a day workouts. We can’t do 18,000 yards a day, along with weight workouts. But our knowledge of Masters aging and fitness is far greater than even 10 years ago. So the bottom line for both Masters and Olympic caliber swimmers still comes down to just one category, technique. Cecil Corwin, Doc, Quick, Kinney and others have gradually revised techniques but there really is nothing new, other than how technique is taught. Most Masters will find that using the progressive methods of TI, with a good coach, will get them the better technique they desire. But the swimmer and the coach must both understand why the drills are taught and what the end results should be in races. I have seen Olympic swimmers doing TI type drills in warm—up before important races. So I could not argue totally against them. Now I use fuzzy logic at my work, but I am not capable of debating how it works. So I can’t see why a slow swimmer who is not a great coach can spend so much time debating and spouting about technique theories, especially when attacking coaches with many years experience like Terry Laughlin. I am surprised some fancy attorney hasn't discussed with you about the real world. Remember everyone has an OPINION, but you do not have a right to take quotes out of context from people who are great coaches and who do know how to make other improve. Until you have taken a TI class from an approved instructor, you have absolutely no right to make CLAIMS against TI. Reading a book any one can do. Becoming a certified instructor in a particular technique method requires much more effort and understanding. You always have the last word. I guess where you work they allow you to be on the Internet all day long, judging by the number and length of your posts. You have killed dozens of discussion threads, and lead many people to not post here. More people have said, “Ion, I used the rolling eyes, because I thought it would be overkill to use my next choice” than you can imagine. Many times I read your posts and just get out of the discussion forum, because I really would like to attack your posts, but it really is just not worth the effort. It is frustrating to many to have a discussion similar to talking to the wall. Most of us who do attempt to set the record straight do so that new swimmers will not get bad and misinformed ideas from this forum. There is usually a good amount of information exchanged from others. Do you put things out just to be posting or to upset everyone? "I bet this can bring me replies that are poetic 'explanations', pseudo-science, therefore 'technique'."Fast Ion Should there not be truth in posting, drop the "Fast", it implies you are actually fast. Or perhaps it is "Fast on quotes and not swimming ION"? Actually most people are taught that "Argumentum Ad Hominem" is wrong. But is it a justified in this case? Perhaps

Now, Breastroker, I know that Ion goes on and on with a subject but just because he is an average master swimmer doesn't mean that you need to insult him for being slow. I'm slow now these days too,probably because I took a good 25 years off from working out with swimming. And I will admit that when I was younger I wasn't that good of swimmer. Just an A and B age group swimmer. Ion started swimming at 25 years old which means that he did not have the youthful training to fall back on. You probably started by at least 12 years old. You know that is that age where the aerobic training mainly develops. Some boys can start in high school but few who start past 18 years old are going to be in the top ten in masters unless its an age group with few swimmers. I admit that maybe, Ion doesn't want to listen to some criticsim that may be helpful. But please don't tell him to drop fast Ion because he isn't in the top 25 times in his age group. By the way, his age group like yours has more people that swim in it compared to others.

I have no desire to enter into this whole "TI or not to TI" mess but I do have a few other comments and opinions. Originally posted by breastroker So I can’t see why a slow swimmer who is not a great coach can spend so much time debating and spouting about technique theories, especially when attacking coaches with many years experience like Terry Laughlin. I am surprised some fancy attorney hasn't discussed with you about the real world. Would a fast swimmer who is a not a great coach but OK? How about a slow swimmer who is a great coach? Now that I think about it, what's the posters speed got to do with any of this? I'm probably faster than you at every stroke and every distance but in no way does that mean I know more about swimming or am a better coach. I just don't see the relevance. While I'm sure some "fancy attorney" might take this on, I'll bet there are more than a few who would argue his case to freely speak his mind. Remember everyone has an OPINION, but you do not have a right to take quotes out of context from people who are great coaches and who do know how to make other improve. Until you have taken a TI class from an approved instructor, you have absolutely no right to make CLAIMS against TI. Reading a book any one can do. Becoming a certified instructor in a particular technique method requires much more effort and understanding. Yep, everyone does have an opinion and that's all Ion and others are putting forth. People have exactly the rights you say they don't have. I'll bet if you think about it without getting emotional you'll agree. People get quoted all the time in and out of context. Watch any political attack add and then listen to the responses. You'll almost always here about how something was taken out of context. Saying that someonce can't make CLAIMS against TI until they've taken an approved class is, in my opinion, ludicrous. When TI books, tapes, web-sites were created and made open to the public they opened TI up for debate and criticism. That's sort of the price you pay when you put your ideas out in the spotlight. If TI is a good thing, and I think it probably is, then it will survive the criticism. Better for TI to stand up and prove someone wrong than to just tell them to be quiet because they don't have the right to complain. These are just my opinions. Bring on the "fancy attorneys". I'm still curious about your reference to front quadrant butterfly in an earlier post. Where can I read more about it?

Originally posted by Phil Arcuni ... I have posted several comments (on 'pause', roll from the hip, etc.) that I both believe in and also thought were issues to both you and Emmett. ... Gee, Phil, I see that since you had had Lasik surgery, you 'see' things alright now.

So much better . . . I see that you said What these statistics prove is that in the instance of 2000 Olympics, 50 free finals, Ervin, after a poor start, did swim faster than Hall by using a higher rate and shorter length. You see, Ion, the real point (in contrast to your point) isn't that Anthony Ervin has a smaller distance per stroke than Popov, and swam faster, it is that Anthony Ervin gets *much* more distance per stroke than *you* do. And it is not because he started swimming earlier than you did, or even because he is taller than you are, but because he has a better stroke. (I know Wayne, not the best.) These swimmers already have many of the stroke characteristics that TI is trying to teach mediocre swimmers like you and me. We should listen.

Phil, well summarized! You just nailed the bottom line in this whole "debate": make valid comparisons. Ion often uses Popov as his measuring stick and the quote of his about making minor adjustments to his stroke vs a complete dismantling. The point here is that Popov, Ervin, Hall, etc are the top 1% and all have a natural gift that can't be taught. The basic feel and stroke mechanics they have are what TI is attempting to bring to the masses and which all of us can learn from. Ion, the real compariosn here should be you and Matt. Your both in the same age group and a year ago about the same speed. Matt has focused on TI and worked extremally hard on correcting his stroke mechanics and look at his results at LC nationals. On the other hand, you continue to train like an animal and are not seeing the improvement. For those of us in the 40+ age group we have to train smarter, otherwise you will see continuous setbacks from injuries (especially with bad technique). You want some examples from USMS? Ask Rich Abrahams how he trains sometime, probably less yardage and more focus on technique and speed work than anyone I've ever met. His results are also some of the most impressive, the guy could pass for a 20 year Navy Seal! How about John Smith (who kicked my butt in the 50/100 this spring)? No more than 2500 yds per workout 3-4 days a week, again with a focus on training with rtechnique and speed. With all the passion you have I to would encourage you to make the investment in a TI seminar. Or better yet go train with Michael Collins (in Irvine) sometime, contrary to my posts about the lack of coaching out there Michael is outstanding and someone I try to train with anytime I'm in SoCal.