Approach to teaching competitive swimming?

Originally posted by Rain Man I'm not so sure TI was as radical when it came out as you say, but it was clearly a change. More in philosphy and teaching method and glitzy marketing than anything but I digress :D I agree with Phil here in that I would like to see highly qualified individuals addressing some of the questions and concerns we have with TI. Maybe by a non-biased person? Hi Rain Man! It occurs to me that, after arguing about the cosmetics of TI, we might not be thinking about the same thing. (The old example of blind people examining different parts of an elephant.) In your first post, you mentioned that the *core* (my emphasis) ideas of TI are already being used in age group. Could you list them? Maybe a Top 3? After you are done, I'll give my long-winded Top 3. :) We both talk about the "ideas", but I have a feeling that our lists are different. That will also shift our conversation from TI, to the basic ideas that TI should be emphasizing (regardless of our perception of how it is actually being implemented).

hey ya'll, try this for size, noting that there is no contradiction to Doc Counsilman's alliteration of ALWAYS ACCENT ACCELERATION. From the moment the hand is made to change direction from its full extension (beginning the recovery) it is in a balistic mode and remains so until until it is time to begin its "pull". Most of us would consider that this brief recovery time is a moment when the swimmer is able to relax the entire arm. The hand, as part of the arm, continues in its relaxed state, to sink to the chosen depth when the swimmer decides to go into the power phase for that limb. Most of us could think of the hand's sinking time as gliding. What other gliding time could there be? If that doesn't happen, the swimmer is missing the only opportunity for any kind of recovery while swimming. That is to say, if it is not balistic it is being held back under unnecessary control, as if the two arms were in opposition like bicycle pedals. Enuf.

Every single time Ion (fast ION) posts a reply, I, along with 99% of others have to roll our eyes and bite our lips. Why? Because of the numerous quotes that are taken out of place and are meaningless. For instance the quote on Ervins' breakout, Here is the actual quote "and he carried less starting velocity into the swim portion of the race. Anthony broke the surface in 2.39 seconds, behind Gary and several others in the race." What part of BEHIND do you not understand ION? I say again, Anthony Ervin and Gary Hall are BAD examples to follow for most of their races. Let’s first discuss the start: “Both Ervin and Hall used a track start, with their heads down and forward on the blocks and the right leg forward (only one other finalist used a track start).” The track start WILL be displaced eventually; it produces lower velocity and is as much as .5 seconds slower when measured to the 15 meters mark. What the USA Swimming site left out conveniently was the start and the 15-meter splits of the entire field. Because of their track starts and poor technique they were behind the field. “At 25 meters, Popov had taken a slight lead over Hall and van den Hoogenband, while Ervin hit the mark in sixth place, still trying to make up ground from the start.” If Hall and Ervin had used a two-footed grab start, done three small dolphins after the entry; they just might have been first to the 15-meter mark, rather than so far behind. “There is no other race in swimming where the start and the finish are as important as the swimming portion itself. A race can be won or lost in these crucial phases of the 50.” They got this right, but all swim races can be won or lost with the start and finish. “This is race is a remarkable example of how finishing technique can reverse the results of 45 meters of swimming.” “As their hands came forward, Gary seems to have a slight advantage, but his head comes up slightly, just inches before his hand touches the wall. This action pulls his hand back slightly, while Anthony keeps his ear glued to his shoulder, taking the most direct line to the wall. Both touch with their fingertips even with their bodyline.” Gary Hall threw away Gold medals in 1996 with his poor finishes. He did not learn much in the 4 years; he could have won the Gold outright if he had finished properly. This is to illustrate how ION takes information and miss uses it. Knowledge is power, and unfortunately this forum gives Ion a forum for his lack of knowledge. Some people out there may just believe Ion has some good points. That is too bad because Masters swimming has some great coaches who would love to help “Fast Ion” get better. I know the coaches in San Diego, and they could help greatly. But there has to be a distinction, one has to be the coach, one has to be the swimmer being coached. When the swimmer KNOWS more than the coach DOES they will never get better. There I said what many are thinking. Sorry Ion, you are probably a nice guy. But you don't listen you only come back with more quotes, time after time. Here is a wild suggestion, take a TI class and listen, see if you get better. There are world class coaches nearby who are certified TI instructors. All they will ask of you is to listen and try. What do you have to loose? Coach Wayne McCauley Always learning and listening :rolleyes:

As far as T.I. methodology goes, I think it's truly a great tool for giving new swimmers proper balance and positioning. I've enjoyed giving pointers to folks who are in need of a little direction. The feedback is always positive. The obvious "rear quadrant" swimmers are no longer fighting the water, they're gliiiiiding. And that's pretty much the bottom line of the T.I. movement. Getting people to swim with less drag and more efficiency. Racing T.I. is still another story. As many people have mentioned in this forum,... if you want to swim fast, you have to practice fast. Anyone who pushes themselves outside of their physical boundaries will see results. I think it's always going to be the great debate however, whether or not T.I. technique is the key to some of the quickest times. It's hard to deny that people without a competitive background can make leaps and bounds in their swimming ability by working with this method.

Originally posted by cinc310 Now, Breastroker, I know that Ion goes on and on with a subject but just because he is an average master swimmer doesn't mean that you need to insult him for being slow. ... You probably started by at least 12 years old. You know that is that age where the aerobic training mainly develops. Some boys can start in high school but few who start past 18 years old are going to be in the top ten in masters unless its an age group with few swimmers. ... I agree. 'Fast' to me means as a late starter in the sport. Since I started, I got some personal bests and insight about them. What would be a time by a late starter -age 25- that is fast? I think -even when swimming off my best- it would be: 59.74 in 100 yards free, in 2002 at age 43; rank 27, out of 44 swimmers ages 40-44 listed this year, in the 800 meter free Long Course. I see this keeps escaping Wayne, who nonetheless is posting. It doesn't escape some other Master Swimmers.

Some interesting posts here. Its too bad this software doesn't allow subthreads, because there are several: What is wrong/right about TI, What is that pause stuff, anyway?, Why I hate Ion, Why you should practice fast sets, etc. About that pause thing, breastroker may see it in the swimmers he mentions, others don't. The reason is that 'pause' is a little vague. Some interpret it as laying the hand in front and letting it sit for a while. That does *not* happen in the best swimmers. Others interpret it as a period when the arm is in in the water and no great force is applied. That does happen. These swimmers are *actively* reaching forward, lifting the elbow, positioning the hand, in preparation for the pull. No great force is applied, but neither is there a literal pause, and neither is it ballistic - it is controlled at all times (ballistic - set in motion in the beginning, with no control over subsequent motion). I think if you are teaching swimming to beginners, these phrases, glide, pause, anchor, rotate from the hip, etc. are useful visualizations, but they are not happening physically. Basically, you move forward by pushing water backward, you can do it better by pushing it faster, pushing more water, or pushing it in a better direction. You can also reduce drag by a better body position. That's it. All swimming instruction, including TI, try to improve these four aspects of swimming. Some emphasize some points more than others, but they are all important. But I can see why Ion gets irritated with all the metaphors and language. No way do you go faster by pausing. Instead, you position your body to reduce drag (while getting ready for the next pull), this reduces your deceleration caused by drag and allows other things (the orther arm, kicking) to move you forward more effectively. That Ervin/Hall article was pretty interesting. Yes, Ervin had a bad start, and yes, he swam the rest of it faster than anyone else, with a faster turn over and a shorter distance per stroke. But what really impressed me was how *terrible* Popov's finish was.

First things first - I am a certified TI instructor. I also have been sitting on the sidelines while others who have found success in adopting and teaching the TI methods are banging their heads against the wall. Ion, your arguments against TI are undermined by your not having a thorough understanding of many of the core concepts which guide it. By dissecting each page without understanding the reasons behind each drill and the importance of the core concepts, you're missing the forest for the trees. Here's a shocker for ya - the TI books do not delve too deeply into the highly technical analysis of stroke technique that you want to comment on. They are instruction manuals meant to help the majority of swimmers find greater efficiency with much less effort. The "marketing behavior in it, as in superficial sales pitches" (as you put it) is for reinforcement of the core concepts you should be focusing on. As others have stated, Olympic-calibre athletes are already employing many of these concepts, whether they realize it or not. TI is just making it more understandable and teachable. Stop nitpicking over the fine points of the TI concepts - based on your own description of your meet performance and stroke count, you are not there yet. Don't expect overnight fix - it took years to develop your current technique (I know, I know, as a "late starter in the sport"); to expect a month of TI-training (especially without having a TI knowledgable coach to guide you) to provide immediate improvements on your fastest times is not realistic. Way back in June, you said "Tackling whole programs like Total Immersion would be overkill for me". Yet you attempted to do just that and expected to have mastered the technique by LC Nats in August. You have to first understand how the best swimmers swim efficiently, then you have to work to achieve the most efficient form that works FOR YOU. Your body type and range of motion will ultimately decide what that will be. I began with TI this past January. In the first three months of training with TI drills, my own stroke count dropped significantly (14 SPL to 9, most days) along with my kick (a strong six beat kick became a gentle two-beat kick) with no overall loss of speed. Nine months later, I am still fine-tuning my stroke. TI drills and coaching feedback have helped me pinpoint which aspects of my stroke need improvement. Gone are kickboards, pull-buoys and, to the relief of my poor shoulders, paddles. I had to initially work through two solid months of drilling just to overcome my old muscle memory, doing TI drills and VERY LITTLE swimming with my masters team. I drilled and swam with the most efficient technique I could maintain as I worked out my stroke. When my stroke count got higher or I just couldn't get things right, I went back to some easy, basic TI drills and left the pool on a high note (and headed straight fo the Jacuzzi!). One of the biggest issues I ran into was fighting my old habits. Muscle memory was my biggest opponent. TI relates that new muscle memory is "burned in" after approximately 20,000 CORRECT repetitions of a movement. The TI drills have aided me in determining whether or not things were working right. Every once ina while, I'll have someone videotape me in the water and I'll analyze my own stroke. THis is very revealing. Have you done this? Here's another thing which I have a feeling you'll find shocking - I don't care about my times in the pool this year. I'm working on RADICAL changes to my technique. Expecting overnight improvements from such a drastic change is unrealistic. I have been honing my technique and now I'll work on the fitness which best takes advantage of that. When, after two months, I rejoined my masters team for a set of way too many 25 yd sprints, I found that my old kick was now a detriment. My hips were now riding so high that a vigorous six-beat kick had my feet actually leaving the water and splashing a lot of water around. By toning it down (quiet swimming) and keeping my kick withing the core cylander of my body, I was able to better control my timing and really focus on my streamlining. I still have my speed and now I can do more sprints with less effort. Some other thoughts: Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa PAUSE. Sort of. We use the perceived 'pause' in the stroke to get free speed. The point of the pause, for me, is my best streamlines body position, from the tips of my fingers to the ends of my toes (I am blessed with one anatomical advantage in swimming: Great ankle flexibility). At this point, I do nothing but stretch (making my self longer in the water maintains my speed) and glide. I maintain the momentum by minimizing the drag. TI is not so much about how much power you are generating by each stroke as it is about how much you are NOT SLOWING DOWN by holding onto your most streamlined position for as long as possible, [until the moment JUST BEFORE you begin to slow down. By that point you are initiating the switch into the next stroke. Ion, try out FistGloves to find out just how streamlined you can be. You'll realize that a pause at your most streamlined position can keep you moving forward with little effort. Try it for some sprints, varying your stroke rate. It's a Zen thing: To swim faster, you must slow down your strokes. TI is about balance: finding your body's balance in the water and finding the SL and SR that work best for you. FOR YOU, not for anyone else. Am I faster for having embraced TI? Maybe, But I'm certainly not slower. I'm a pretty decent open water swimmer - last year I was in top shape and put in a vigorous swim at Ironman USA. I now realize that I worked a lot harder than I had to. This year, due to a hectic work and travel schedule and klutzy injuries, my training time in the pool (and on land) was probably at the lowest level since 1995. Yet this year I have consistently been a top finisher in my swims with results as good as last year, but with much less effort. That pretty much put the last nail in the coffin of the technique vs. fitness argument for me. And I enjoy it so much more now. Finally, the TI kickboard argument is simple. Using a kickboard brings your head and chest up and your hips down. That is swimming "uphill". kicking with no board in a TI drill builds lower-leg fitness without reinforcing bad body position. Technique is more important than fitness, but fitness is still very important. Wow, that was way longer than i expected. Sorry folks. I suppose some bits of my little post here will be pulled out and commented on by the king of posters, but it doesn't matter. I know what works for ME, and I feel lucky that TI has allowed me to share that with others and help them as well. - No Brain, No Gain.

I agree with your last post Phil. Rich, I read your last post, but I need to study it more. First impressions are: a) I remember your posts as being antagonist with my posts in the thread about how to improve the USMS image; I remember two of your posts particularly; I am surprised to see now a spirit of co-operation. b) regarding TI you just write that you don't know if you are faster, you write "Maybe"; in the thread 'TI advice: stroke length vs rate', people write about getting slower, so that's a discredit of TI right there; myself I have no confidence in it; in this thread, I am surprised that silently you paid attention to my reactions -like "...TI would be overkill for me..." in June- and taking a position only now after observing a lot; that's patient intelligence. c) things that TI condones are no fun, in order to achieve at best a "Maybe" like you wrote; dismantling one's stroke, means initially losing the power to perform, for perhaps a final "Maybe" only; I am a proponent of "The key is constant attention to the quality of technique but without making excessive changes such that swimmers lose their feel for the water." said by Touretski, coach of Popov, and quoted in Swimnews magazine of May 1998.

What is really frustrating as a coach is when a swimmer thinks they know more than you do, and disrupts the whole workout. Some swimmers read too much, and a little knowledge can be dangerous. Ion is obviously very smart, and despite starting swimming late has much potential. All coaches want the best for their swimmers. I would love to see Ion get better, get faster. The constant arguing takes it's tolls, if Ion was swimming for me I would probably kick him out of practice a couple of times a week. But that would not stop me from wanting to help him, but coaches do have responsibility to the team. That is why I came down on Ion. I see from this discussion so many people who want to learn about things like front quadrant butterfly, the PAUSE in fast freestyle, and even the TI methods of swimming. Ion justs gets us off track sometimes, with dozens of quotes and statistics. That said I do welcome Ion to contribute to all these forums, he does add to the flavor of discussion. The executives always say to me, don't come to me with a problem, come with a solution. I am always positive in nature. I really believe that if Ion went to a TI camp with someone great like Michael Collins, he would come away a convert. He could improve more than swimmers who swam if their youth. I see technique improvements in non swimmers all the time, but they are open and listen. All a coach wants is the swimmers to get better, to enjoy the swimming experience. Lets get going on front quadrant swimming and breaststroke kick discussions. Coach Wayne McCauley Come visit me at http://www.breaststroke.info the number one web site for breaststrokers. I am feeling the writing bug again, let me know what interests you, perhaps I can help someone out there with their breaststroke. And if I can't, I have lots of coaches who have contributed and can enlighten you frustrated breaststrokers.

Wayne, how many times do you manage to be wrong since yesterday? Now, add this one to the list: Originally posted by breastroker What is really frustrating as a coach is when a swimmer thinks they know more than you do, and disrupts the whole workout. ... The reason I ask this, is that in five Masters programs that I joined since I came to US late 1995, I didn't disrupt one. Regarding coached Masters workouts here in San Diego -where I came two years ago-, when did I disrupt the coach's workout? I never did, and I train in five Masters coached workouts per week. People who meet me face to face, see me working out under coaching or by myself, and communicate with me, are not blaming me for anything, but you blame me for disrupting Masters workouts according to your assumption. It appears to me that in your perceptions, you miss the point that unlike a coached workout that I join when I like it and abide by, this is a discussion forum not a dictator forum, so inputs by everyone into swimming are being communicated, analyzed and discussed on their merits.