Now that I've gone through the hassle of signing up as a member of this dicussion group, this gets more and more fun. Maybe I'll get fired from my job :)
Anyway... I'm sure that ALL Masters level swimmers have heard of Total Immersion (from now on referred to as TI) swimming, correct? What are everyone's opinions about TI swimming? I am most curious because as a coach of age group swimmers, I was looking for training videos for our kids. I happened upon TI and liked what I saw... at first.
Here's some background for my experience with TI... very well put together, most of what they teach has been in existence for some time anyway, and they certainly are good for teaching novice/beginner swimmers the basic technique for swimming.
However, when looking to swim fast, and I mean fast, not lap swim quality, but truly competitively, I thing TI has missed to boat completely. Yes, smooth and efficient swimming is nice, but did anyone see the NCAA's? There are 20 year old men swimming 9 strokes per length in breaststroke! We have a number of age group coaches in my area teaching their kids how to swim breaststroke at 6 or 7 strokes a length!!! What gives? Extended glide is one thing, but when you slow down your stroke to such an extent just to achieve long and fluid strokes you sacrifice speed tremendously.
Hey, if you can swim 9 strokes a length at 1 second per stroke that is WAY better than 6 strokes a length at 2 seconds per stroke. Simple math.
Anthony Ervin of Cal swam the 100 free in the follwing SPL... 12 (start)/15/16/16. I could be off but that's what I was able to get from the (ahem- PALTRY) ESPN coverage. Now TI has goal SPL's of 12/13! Hello, if the BEST sprinter in history takes 8 cycles, shouldn't that tell us something? Turnover is very important. Same with streamlining, yes streamlines are nice and quite important but A.E. pops up after 5 yards MAX out of each turn. You only serve yourself well if your streamline is faster than you can swim, most age group swimmers would be well-served to explode out of the turn and swim within 3-4 yards.
Alas, it's been a slow day finishing my work for the week. Just looking to start a nice discussion. It's been my experience that a lot of Masters level swimmers are also engaged in coaching age group swimming at some level, and therefore I feel we can get some good dialogue going on this issue.
Now I've just used TI as an example because that's what I've had my experience with, but more general is what keys do you all stress when trying to mold competitive swimmers?
Au revoir,
-Rain Man
Former Member
Originally posted by Rain Man
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There is absolutely no reason living in the state of California that you can't find a coach that will suit your needs.
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That's what I thought too in the year 2000, when I got attractive job offers from elsewhere, but I chose San Diego anyway.
I am training now with another program, and I don't know how well it will prepare me for racing.
In today's aerobic workout with the new program, in a 50 meter pool, there was a 8 x 250 meters free set, leaving every 3:45.
3:45 per 250 meter, that's a pace of 1:30 per 100, kept for 2,000 meters straight.
I made the set, in the first two reps with as much as 15 seconds rest to spare, so with a sometimes pace of sub 1:25.
In Cleveland, August 15, I swam the 800 free in 11:45. That's a pace of 1:28.
Conclusion from this -and other similar examples-:
in Cleveland I was swimming in aerobic shape, not in race shape.
To me it is the coached workout duty to put me in race shape when the meet of the season is coming up and it was communicated with the coach four months ahead, otherwise I don't entrust myself anylonger in the program, and I wasted one year of efforts.
I use to live in California and the facilities are not that great. For one thing most of the swimming pools are aginig high school pools. Orange County has not that many more 50 meter pools than Tucson Arizona. Population comparsion, 3 million people in Orange County versus less 900,000 in Pima county. The pools are more are less available to the general public in California because so many of them are high school and college pools. Here in Arizona where they built more rec pools you can even workout in the middle of the day. As for coaches, I doubt that they are any better than those in California than Arizona.
Originally posted by cinc310
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The butterfly and freestyle and even the terrible backstroke I had was made better than the general non-swimmming population by doing yardage more than 3,000 yards a day usually 5 days a week.
Yes, Cynthia.
When I get a shameful result (like 2:39 for 200 free this past August in Long Course in Cleveland) I think of it this way:
and where would I be if I give up, and become a lap swimmer who swims 'for fun to stay in shape'?
certainly slower, so worse.
Originally posted by breastroker
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With your speed in the 100, there is absolutely no reason you can't get down to 2:22 in the 200 meters. With your repeats you should have easily broke 2:25. I feel you are probably overtraining.
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My speed in the 100 free Long Course in 1994 -when I did 2:27 for 200 free Long Course- was 1:06, in 1996 was 1:04 (competition in June 1996 in Santa Clara), and in 2002 was 1:09.
I think 'overtraining' is a key word, opposed to training at race pace:
if one grinds mileage through fatigue, through lifting weights that don't contribute to fast swimming, but contribute to an athletic look on dry land, then one races like the grinding is: slow.
Originally posted by breastroker
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When I was your age I changed teams, ...
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I had good coaches prior to 1995, when I came to US:
a coach from France for two years who picked me up at age 28 from public swim into his club of senior (over 18 years old) racers, a coach from Canada who put me for one year into his club of seniors and who later on coached the 2000 Canadian Olympic Team, and a Masters coach for three years in Canada who was an university varsity swimmer.
I need to find the level of coaching that puts me in race shape, here.
Originally posted by breastroker
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How long did you taper? Did other swimmers from your program do well or did they not improve at Nationals?
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Three weeks, and my body wouldn't bounce into higher energy, but would get out of shape.
Over the last two years I was the only one training for the combo, Short Course Nationals and Long Course Nationals.
Nobody else prepared for the 2002 Long Course Nationals.
In general, a few would occasionally do a meet then rest for years.
In 2001, another swimmer -training all year long in yards- came to Long Course Nationals, physically broken down from training, skipped 100 and 200 free, and did 50 free and 50 fly.
I trained in yards in fall, winter and spring, and meters in the summer.
The meters training is what I describe as 'cafeteria' training: no agenda for racing, training at race pace, peaking, recovery or tapering, but self servings of swimming in the lane of your chosen pace, with forever aerobic; many swimmers in the program recognize this 'cafeteria' training style.
Originally posted by breastroker
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I really suggest you do more swim meets, especially the short course meters season.
I see this.
Originally posted by Matt S
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I still have a subjective feeling I am sitting on another big drop, and that this year's Nationals was not my best performance...
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Ion, just a note for your consideration: is oxygen debt holding you back?
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Because of ahsma issues, he breaths every 1. (Yup, not every 3 or even every 2; every 1--...
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I also think that I have a drop in me, based on workouts.
About oxygen debt, it is possible that it holds me back, and that in the past when I was faster, breathing every three strokes was good.
Right now, with coaches, we have the consensus that breathing when I need it, every one stroke, that's a faster swim than holding the breath to have a pattern of 2 or 3, which make me lame.
Originally posted by Matt S
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...every 1--both sides. I know; I counted for him in his 2001 800 free when he went 11:20.) The only way he can do that without having his hips sink way below the water and swimming like a cement truck, is by having excellent balance, spot on perfect head position, and good body roll.
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I wonder if Paul -who claims in another thread that I need major technical improvements-, and Phil -who claims in another thread that I need better balance based on my 100 yards free in Hawaii, and in this thread mentions that Ervin has better balance than me-, considered this
"...by having excellent balance, spot on perfect head position, and good body roll.",
which was observed from close range by Matt.
It's refreshing to me that Matt sees positives.
Jeff, the state of Oregon is a small state. And it doesn't have that many 50 meter pools. Orange County has built few 50 meter pools and even 25 yard pools the past 25 years mainly because of Prop 13 that limited money collected from property texes. Mission Viejo was built in the late 1960's and the Nova center was built in the mid-1970's. The Nova club got the go head for updating their facility because their one of the top teams in the United States. The Orange County Register reported that other cities mainly Santa Ana which has high immirgrant population had to curtail water aerobic classes and learn to swim programs. I doubt there is any longer a 50 meter pool in Santa Ana. Huntington Beach has one community pool at the high school. Golden West college is mainly open to students and the age group team there, I think the master team worksout in another pool. Also, I went to the Garden Grove school district has has 7 pools built during the 1950's to the late 1960's. These pools are not open for master teams or lap swimming. I was just stating that not all people in southern california swim in state of the art 50 meter pools like those back east believe. I find this information by looking up places to swim in California and Arizona. Finally, I'm near two rec pools that offer lap and offer swimming in the middle of the day in Tucson.
Cynthia,
I'm not sure what state of the art pools has to do with this topic, in finding a fit in a coach. The issue was in finding a qualified coach (Rainman to Ion), and not all quality programs train in state of the art pools (the UCLA pool I believe on campus where most of the dual meets were held was pretty archaic) but since it was thrown out there - I found two pools in Orange county that were questionable in public access - but the belief was a registered master swimmer would be able to drop in and swim with the masters swim team. The reason why I used Oregon compared to Orange County is both are roughly the same population (3 million give or take). Lastly in regards to pool construction, the UCI pool was built in 1999, Irvine's Heritage park pool is in for a rebuilding (so I've heard) - most of the new pools being built in Oregon (which is not very many)are not what I would call fast (25 yard pools with most of them having a deep end of 5 feet).
Regarding my use of big names for quotes and practices, I think that what's coming from a recognizable name, easy to check since it's in the public domain, applies down toward the anonymous Masters in a comparable portion of a context.
After reviewing Rich's post on doing TI, I am focusing on this:
Originally posted by MetroSwim
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I had to initially work through two solid months of drilling just to overcome my old muscle memory, doing TI drills and VERY LITTLE swimming with my masters team.
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One of the biggest issues I ran into was fighting my old habits. Muscle memory was my biggest opponent.
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Here's another thing which I have a feeling you'll find shocking - I don't care about my times in the pool this year. I'm working on RADICAL changes to my technique.
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Am I faster for having embraced TI? Maybe, But I'm certainly not slower.
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And I enjoy it so much more now.
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My decided approach to improving on my current times, is to find a program that restores what times I had, from end of 1986 until June 1996.
Afterwards, improve on the restored times with small, careful changes that don't dismantle the style, and shift problems forever.
If I don't have my times restored under a new program, I am fine with this search.
Originally posted by MetroSwim
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We use the perceived 'pause' in the stroke to get free speed. The point of the pause, for me, is my best streamlines body position, from the tips of my fingers to the ends of my toes (I am blessed with one anatomical advantage in swimming: Great ankle flexibility). At this point, I do nothing but stretch (making my self longer in the water maintains my speed) and glide. I maintain the momentum by minimizing the drag.
TI is not so much about how much power you are generating by each stroke as it is about how much you are NOT SLOWING DOWN by holding onto your most streamlined position for as long as possible,
In swimming, (Speed) is (Stroke Length) multiplied by (Stroke Rate).
I think I lost on Stroke Rate by aging, and too much of the 'pause' you describe, slows me down:
in Cleveland, last month, two observers noticed a too big 'pause' in my 800 free;
in Canada, the coach of the 2000 Canadian Olympic Team, when coaching me in 1989 -during my lifetime peak in the 100 free Long Course-, told me to move my arms faster.
It is possible that I lost on Stroke Length too:
I didn't change technique -other than losing breathing every three strokes, in favor to breathing every one stroke since the early 90s, due to asthma-, but I am heavier and need more power to move this weight.
(At 6 feet, I was peaking at 154 pounds, and now I am 166 pounds, with the same body fat as before, but more muscles and not necessarily swimming muscles).
Cynthia,
How about this - I believe that there are more 50 meter pools in just Orange County than in the entire state of Oregon (which my lead to another topic - how many actually train specifically in a pool of the season, swim in a 50 meter pool during LCM season, do you train consistently or occasionally - my current situation limits access to LCM pools so we primarily and almost exclusively train in only a 25 yard pool regardless of season). My take on Rainman's is that the area has so many swim programs Ion should be able to find one that suits him. Also the comment on Ion driving to Irvine to workout is not that far fetched - what about just doing Saturday workouts with Nova - an hour and a half drive ain't bad (I know lots of people who do that in the LA area everyday just to commute to and from work - yes an hour to an hour and a half each way).
I also think the Yogi Berra comment might shed some light or at least get you thinking, the pressure/anxiety/expectation before a competitive swim may be problem - most of the swimmers I know when they had a great swim was things felt effortless, where they were relaxed - you trying to get up for that big swim or force things may be making you your own worst enemy, just a thought.
Jeff
Cynthia,
I don't consider swimming a hobby. Coins and stamps are hobbies. Swimming is a passion, a lifestyle.
It appears to me Ion has swimming passion. Ion has paid for extra lessons, and has changed teams to get closer to his goals. To be frank, Michael Collins is the best freestyle coach I know. If I were Ion I would at least make the drive to one of Michaels clinics.
Just my opinion as a swimmer and a coach.
As for old pools, the El Segundo pool was built by the WPA in 1940. The starting blocks are now over the deep end, which is 12 feet becasue we used to have a three meter diving board there. The shallow turn end is four foot deep, enough for good turns. The overflow gutters are still pretty good. The only things that are not state of the art are 7 foot wide lanes instead of 8 foot, and the lane lines themselves. Ours are OK, Olympic spec lines are VERY expensive. From this 62 year old pool our team, the SLUGS, have won several small team titles in National Championships. Most impressive is the depth of talent, look in the rule book, many relay records are still held by El Segundo. We have a great head coach and 6-7 others who are equally good in specialty areas. Good coaches make great swimmers, great facilities are not needed.
They are building new 50 meter pools in California all the time. Santa Monica (SCAQ Masters) has a new state of art 50 meter pool.
Wayne
This is true:
Originally posted by breastroker
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Ion has paid for extra lessons, and has changed teams to get closer to his goals.
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Regarding this:
Originally posted by breastroker
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To be frank, Michael Collins is the best freestyle coach I know. If I were Ion I would at least make the drive to one of Michaels clinics.
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I refer to my post October 2, for example to this portion:
Originally posted by Ion Beza
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My decided approach to improving on my current times, is to find a program that restores what times I had, from end of 1986 until June 1996.
Afterwards, improve on the restored times with small, careful changes that don't dismantle the style, and shift problems forever.
If I don't have my times restored under a new program, I am fine with this search.
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It shows that to go forward, I want to restore what once worked for me, then try baby steps from there.
If Michael Collins were reaspecting this foremost, which is molding technique into an existing swimmer and not molding a swimmer into existing technique, then -work permitting- I would consider the commute.
However, my October 2 post also shows that TI is described below as a dismantling of habits, even the ones that worked and do work today, and replacing this with a fuzzy future, shifting problems:
see "...Maybe..." in it,
see Matt's post 'Truth in advertising' about his 5:18 in 2001 and 5:21 in 2002,
see Bill White's thread 'TI advice: stroke length vs rate',
and see my evaluation of my own rate and length, that I posted October 2.
Originally posted by MetroSwim
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I had to initially work through two solid months of drilling just to overcome my old muscle memory, doing TI drills and VERY LITTLE swimming with my masters team.
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One of the biggest issues I ran into was fighting my old habits. Muscle memory was my biggest opponent.
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Here's another thing which I have a feeling you'll find shocking - I don't care about my times in the pool this year. I'm working on RADICAL changes to my technique.
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Am I faster for having embraced TI? Maybe, But I'm certainly not slower.
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And I enjoy it so much more now.
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This TI description, to me, is like if I were a musician and being asked to play music that I don't want.
Being more succint and blunt:
in my first priority I don't want to buy TI -with its debatable points- or a foreign to me technique, I want to restore as much as possible of whatever worked for me in three programs I successively followed.
