Now that I've gone through the hassle of signing up as a member of this dicussion group, this gets more and more fun. Maybe I'll get fired from my job :)
Anyway... I'm sure that ALL Masters level swimmers have heard of Total Immersion (from now on referred to as TI) swimming, correct? What are everyone's opinions about TI swimming? I am most curious because as a coach of age group swimmers, I was looking for training videos for our kids. I happened upon TI and liked what I saw... at first.
Here's some background for my experience with TI... very well put together, most of what they teach has been in existence for some time anyway, and they certainly are good for teaching novice/beginner swimmers the basic technique for swimming.
However, when looking to swim fast, and I mean fast, not lap swim quality, but truly competitively, I thing TI has missed to boat completely. Yes, smooth and efficient swimming is nice, but did anyone see the NCAA's? There are 20 year old men swimming 9 strokes per length in breaststroke! We have a number of age group coaches in my area teaching their kids how to swim breaststroke at 6 or 7 strokes a length!!! What gives? Extended glide is one thing, but when you slow down your stroke to such an extent just to achieve long and fluid strokes you sacrifice speed tremendously.
Hey, if you can swim 9 strokes a length at 1 second per stroke that is WAY better than 6 strokes a length at 2 seconds per stroke. Simple math.
Anthony Ervin of Cal swam the 100 free in the follwing SPL... 12 (start)/15/16/16. I could be off but that's what I was able to get from the (ahem- PALTRY) ESPN coverage. Now TI has goal SPL's of 12/13! Hello, if the BEST sprinter in history takes 8 cycles, shouldn't that tell us something? Turnover is very important. Same with streamlining, yes streamlines are nice and quite important but A.E. pops up after 5 yards MAX out of each turn. You only serve yourself well if your streamline is faster than you can swim, most age group swimmers would be well-served to explode out of the turn and swim within 3-4 yards.
Alas, it's been a slow day finishing my work for the week. Just looking to start a nice discussion. It's been my experience that a lot of Masters level swimmers are also engaged in coaching age group swimming at some level, and therefore I feel we can get some good dialogue going on this issue.
Now I've just used TI as an example because that's what I've had my experience with, but more general is what keys do you all stress when trying to mold competitive swimmers?
Au revoir,
-Rain Man
Parents
Former Member
I have no desire to enter into this whole "TI or not to TI" mess but I do have a few other comments and opinions.
Originally posted by breastroker
So I can’t see why a slow swimmer who is not a great coach can spend so much time debating and spouting about technique theories, especially when attacking coaches with many years experience like Terry Laughlin. I am surprised some fancy attorney hasn't discussed with you about the real world.
Would a fast swimmer who is a not a great coach but OK?
How about a slow swimmer who is a great coach? Now that I think about it, what's the posters speed got to do with any of this? I'm probably faster than you at every stroke and every distance but in no way does that mean I know more about swimming or am a better coach. I just don't see the relevance. While I'm sure some "fancy attorney" might take this on, I'll bet there are more than a few who would argue his case to freely speak his mind.
Remember everyone has an OPINION, but you do not have a right to take quotes out of context from people who are great coaches and who do know how to make other improve. Until you have taken a TI class from an approved instructor, you have absolutely no right to make CLAIMS against TI. Reading a book any one can do. Becoming a certified instructor in a particular technique method requires much more effort and understanding.
Yep, everyone does have an opinion and that's all Ion and others are putting forth. People have exactly the rights you say they don't have. I'll bet if you think about it without getting emotional you'll agree. People get quoted all the time in and out of context. Watch any political attack add and then listen to the responses. You'll almost always here about how something was taken out of context.
Saying that someonce can't make CLAIMS against TI until they've taken an approved class is, in my opinion, ludicrous. When TI books, tapes, web-sites were created and made open to the public they opened TI up for debate and criticism. That's sort of the price you pay when you put your ideas out in the spotlight. If TI is a good thing, and I think it probably is, then it will survive the criticism. Better for TI to stand up and prove someone wrong than to just tell them to be quiet because they don't have the right to complain.
These are just my opinions. Bring on the "fancy attorneys".
I'm still curious about your reference to front quadrant butterfly in an earlier post. Where can I read more about it?
I have no desire to enter into this whole "TI or not to TI" mess but I do have a few other comments and opinions.
Originally posted by breastroker
So I can’t see why a slow swimmer who is not a great coach can spend so much time debating and spouting about technique theories, especially when attacking coaches with many years experience like Terry Laughlin. I am surprised some fancy attorney hasn't discussed with you about the real world.
Would a fast swimmer who is a not a great coach but OK?
How about a slow swimmer who is a great coach? Now that I think about it, what's the posters speed got to do with any of this? I'm probably faster than you at every stroke and every distance but in no way does that mean I know more about swimming or am a better coach. I just don't see the relevance. While I'm sure some "fancy attorney" might take this on, I'll bet there are more than a few who would argue his case to freely speak his mind.
Remember everyone has an OPINION, but you do not have a right to take quotes out of context from people who are great coaches and who do know how to make other improve. Until you have taken a TI class from an approved instructor, you have absolutely no right to make CLAIMS against TI. Reading a book any one can do. Becoming a certified instructor in a particular technique method requires much more effort and understanding.
Yep, everyone does have an opinion and that's all Ion and others are putting forth. People have exactly the rights you say they don't have. I'll bet if you think about it without getting emotional you'll agree. People get quoted all the time in and out of context. Watch any political attack add and then listen to the responses. You'll almost always here about how something was taken out of context.
Saying that someonce can't make CLAIMS against TI until they've taken an approved class is, in my opinion, ludicrous. When TI books, tapes, web-sites were created and made open to the public they opened TI up for debate and criticism. That's sort of the price you pay when you put your ideas out in the spotlight. If TI is a good thing, and I think it probably is, then it will survive the criticism. Better for TI to stand up and prove someone wrong than to just tell them to be quiet because they don't have the right to complain.
These are just my opinions. Bring on the "fancy attorneys".
I'm still curious about your reference to front quadrant butterfly in an earlier post. Where can I read more about it?
