USMS Rules question: Initial distance

Correct, you would still need to do a record application if the split time was a record. I believe Walt has written a program to read and extract split times from a Hytek results output file (eg commlink). I have added split requests to the Top Times database before, but is a bit tedious. If I process a meet that has enough split times to make the effort worthwhile, I do it. But for just one or two, I don't add it to Top Times but instead just submit it for TT consideration. If you use Team Manager to do your LMSC Top Ten, there is an easy way to extract a legal split to make it a legal time for that meet and then it automatically gets included when you do your Top Ten submission to include all meets of the particular course. But to get the times into Top Times, you have to work with Meet Manager to create the export file. When IGLA was in PV in 2008 I basically copied the Hytek MM database to a new file, wiped out all entries, then manually added the split request results and then did a commlink export to upload to USMS. Jeff

A possible justification is that if you submit your request before the end of the meet the referee can check the validity of the split with all the timing tapes, watch times, etc. easily available. I don't know how long all that stuff is kept for or who keeps it so perhaps it's not relevant, I'm just guessing.

Two things. First, a lot of this conversation only further establishes that the requirement to notify the referee in writing before the end of the meet is not necessary. It turns out that people are trying to find ways around this rule anyways. As such, it should be removed. Second, some of these comments are not directly related to the issue at hand. I'm not getting into the requirements for national or world records, etc. Some of those requirements are covered by other rules, or other policies. All I'm interested in is the requirement that you request the referee in writing before the end of the meet. For example... even if you do make a written request to the referee before the end of the meet, all of the timing backup issues are still an issue. You still have to take into account primary/secondary/tertiary timing requirements for different levels of records/top-ten/etc. Those issues don't go away. But they don't need to be re-added to the scenario, because they're already part of the rules. To even be more nit-picky on this rule... the rule only says that the swimmer must notify the referee in writing before the end of the meet. That can be well after the swim has happened. So there's nothing that the referee can do with this notification, except file it away in a file full of other administrivia. For example, in our New England LMSC Championship meet, which takes place over two week-ends, it's possible that you could hand the referee your written request a full 8 days after your swim took place, and still be before the end of the meet. Now that the referee is holding that piece of paper 8 days later... how does that change anything about the swim that took place 8 days earlier? -Rick

I again want to be absolutely clear about two different issues here, and that I'm only arguing about one of them. The issue I'm interested in is the "validity of official time". The issue I'm not (yet!) interested in is "what is the expectation of what is automatically processed, etc. for top-10 times, etc.". The scenario I care about is this: Swimmer goes to a meet, swims the 1650 free. Maybe sets a local record, maybe sets a national record. Whatever. There's no doubt about the validity of their 1650 finish time. Swimmer gets home, after the meet is over, looks at the results, and realizes "Wow, my 1000 split was also a regional record!". However, it's now after the meet is over. Since the swimmer did not write down a trivial request on a post-it note and give it to the referee before leaving the pool, the window is forever closed, and this 1000 split can never be recognized as a record, since it cannot, by rule, be considered an "official time". All I'm saying is that after-the-fact, we should be able to recognize that 1000 split as a fully official time. It satisfies every other requirement for "official time", except that the swimmer did not make a request to the referee in writing before the end of the meet. I'm not getting into anything about whether we should be automatically culling for splits. I'm just saying that if one is discovered, it shouldn't be invalid because a piece of administrivia was not followed at the meet. -Rick

If it's an old rule the rationale might have been that lots of meets didn't use automatic timing equipment, so in that case the manual timers would need to be instructed to take splits. These days meets without electronic timing as the primary system are pretty rare.

There was a time when it was against USMS rules to use split times for official times at all. The only way that reinstating the use of split times for official times would have passed the House of Delegates was if: 1. they were timed by auotmatic timing only (no backup timing, manual, or semi-automatic timing particularly because of timing discrepancies with timers at the opposite end of the start for a 50 meter split in a long course event), 2. the swimmer completed the full race without being disqualified and all four swimmers completed the relay without being disqualified (otherwise one person would swim the first leg and no other swimmers would be there to finish the relay), 3. the swimmer requested the split time in writing prior to the swim for all events (so the LMSC Top 10 and records person would not be expected to extrapolate all the splits from every meet - too much work), 4. the second swimmer in a relay did not start in the water (creating a potential for interference with the timing pad), and 5. the swimmer used a legal finish at the initial distance. Notice that when splits were originally reinstated ALL split requests had to be submitted in writing PRIOR to the swim. That part of the rule was changed a few years later, so that all splits except relays and backstroke could be requested in writing prior to the end of the meet, giving swimmers a little extra time to realize it might be a good idea to request certain splits. Rather than using a post-it note to request a split in writing, you can copy and use the split request form on page 137 in the 2010 rule book. It's also in the Operating Guidelines. There are still some people who don't like allowing splits for official times and would vote them out because it gives an unfair advantage to freestylers and backstrokers in the sprints due to relays. Kathy Casey, Chair USMS Rules Committee

There was a time when it was against USMS rules to use split times for official times at all. The only way that reinstating the use of split times for official times would have passed the House of Delegates was if: 1. they were timed by auotmatic timing only (no backup timing, manual, or semi-automatic timing particularly because of timing discrepancies with timers at the opposite end of the start for a 50 meter split in a long course event), 2. the swimmer completed the full race without being disqualified and all four swimmers completed the relay without being disqualified (otherwise one person would swim the first leg and no other swimmers would be there to finish the relay), 3. the swimmer requested the split time in writing prior to the swim for all events (so the LMSC Top 10 and records person would not be expected to extrapolate all the splits from every meet - too much work), 4. the second swimmer in a relay did not start in the water (creating a potential for interference with the timing pad), and 5. the swimmer used a legal finish at the initial distance. Thank you, Kathy. So (addressing Rick and others) it seems the main reason for requesting the splits by the end of the meet is because it is too much work for TT recorders; the other reasons don't really apply to the deadline issue, except for the need to request some splits before the race to (a) ensure a legal finish in the case of backstroke; and (b) ensure timing accuracy in the case of relay leadoffs. Both of those seem reasonable. It is true that split requests do increase the workload of TT recorders. Like Jeff, I usually do these manually and it is a bit of a kludge. If I had to do a lot -- as Walt does at nationals -- I would have to find a different way of doing them. Probably I would use Team Manager, as Jeff does. Not all TTRs have access to TM. But I don't think that extending the deadline would add all that much more work, unless split requests become much more common than I would expect them to be. If they did, then a tool along the lines that Jim M proposed -- where someone could check a box some sort of meet results/database page to request that a specific split count -- would be a great solution. The more I think about it, though, I think the most appropriate deadline would be "by the end of the current season" as defined in the USMS rule book. I just think it muddies the water too much to retroactively (after the season ends) declare that a particular split is an official time. Anyway, I can bring this up at a future Recs & Tabulation Committee meeting and see what happens. But if Rick wants to ensure that there is a proposal at the next Convention to change the existing rule -- or that such a proposal is crafted to his liking -- then he should submit one himself.

It certainly gives freestylers and backstrokers more opportunities, but I would argue it doesn't give them an unfair advantage in any way. I think if you swim a distance legally and it is timed in accordance with the rules then the time should count. Well...it is an unfair advantage in the sense that having more opportunities is an advantage. When I enter nationals, for example, I routinely either do not enter the 50 back, or I may designate it as my 6th event. I do this because I know I'll be able to get a legal time in it leading off some relay. (That depends on my team cooperating, of course.) So that means that, for example, I can effectively get my 6th event at nationals even if they decide to cut it.

If you are satisfied with the validity of split time, why can't your LSMC (or whatever "region" you are concerned about) simply make it a policy to accept split times for LMSC records? Because then we would be in violation of USMS rules! We might as well institute a rule that says we will recognize LMSC records in the butterfly, even if you got DQed for a 1-hand touch. How could a LMSC have a rule to recognize times that USMS won't recognize as valid? LMSC records -- where I am using the term "LMSC record " to refer to records for LMSCs, workout groups, clubs, pools, meets, or zones -- are not recognized as such by USMS. Nor does USMS require that such records be kept, nor does it police their accuracy. An LMSC can decide, for example, to have a record in a 150 fly and count (unrequested) initial splits in the 200 fly, or hold it as a separate (unofficial) event in a fun meet. Same thing for 25s. Or 50 kick events. Or a "40-under" 100 freestyle. Or a 400 backstroke. (Whether it is wise to do these things is up to your LMSC/workout group/club/Zone/etc.) If your LMSC governing body is satisfied that an initial split is accurate and the swim was otherwise legit (ie, not illegal by the rules of competition), then they may decide that you are free to use it for your LMSC records. There is nothing in the Rule Book to prevent that. If there is, please point it out to me. What you can't do is use that (unrequested) split for a USMS or FINA Top Ten submission, or to apply for a USMS or FINA record.

... a useful history ... Kathy - Thanks for the useful background for how we got to where we are today. There are still some people who don't like allowing splits for official times and would vote them out because it gives an unfair advantage to freestylers and backstrokers in the sprints due to relays. More reason to repeal this rule. In my scenario, repealing this rule makes it easier for distance swimmers to get recognition for their "accidental" initial distance splits that may be records or top-10. -Rick