Does anyone know the rationale behind USMS rule 103.13.1(B)(1)? Specifically, this says that in order for an initial distance split to count as an "official time" (and thus, eligible for records, top-ten, etc.), the swimmer must notify the meet referee in writing before the end of the meet.
Does anyone know why we insist on this level of administrivia? This means that, technically, even as a meet director... if I notice that someone's 1000 split on their 1650 would be a new record... it's not a new record unless I remind the swimmer him/herself to write down on a piece of paper "Please make my split time count", and hand it to the referee. Before they leave the pool at the end of the meet.
In USA Swimming, the paperwork isn't necessary. Your 1000 split counts, without any paperwork, as long as it's valid, you finished the event, etc., etc. But you don't need silly paperwork.
So why do we insist on this paperwork in USMS? This seems like something that is doing us all a massive disservice as I'm sure many many potential records and top ten performances are being missed. If you swim a 1650, and your initial 1000 was a certain time... then your initial 1000 was that time, regardless of any paperwork you submit by the end of the meet.
(This is separate from setting up an expectation that these splits will be automatically submitted. That's a separate issue. My only issue is that if the swimmer does not write something down on a post-it note, that the window of opportunity closes, and there is no way to un-close the window the way the rulebook is written.)
I suppose the solution is to amend the disclaimer/waiver language for our meet entries to include a sentence "I HEREBY REQUEST TO THE REFEREE THAT EVERY INITIAL DISTANCE OF EVERY EVENT THAT I SWIM BE CONSIDERED AS AN OFFICIAL TIME.", and then that part of the rule is satisfied. If the USMS Rules Committee insists, I can photocopy all of our entry forms, and hand them to the Referee before the end of the meet.
-Rick
What you can't do is use that (unrequested) split for a USMS or FINA Top Ten submission, or to apply for a USMS or FINA record.
And that's the point. I think these splits should be eligible for USMS records and USMS top ten submissions.
-Rick
If your LMSC governing body is satisfied that an initial split is accurate and the swim was otherwise legit (ie, not illegal by the rules of competition), then they may decide that you are free to use it for your LMSC records.
This serves to encourage a model where there is the real possibility of LMSC records in some events being faster than the USMS record in that event, only because of an administrative paperwork requirement. I think that's an absurd model to encourage.
-Rick
This serves to encourage a model where there is the real possibility of LMSC records in some events being faster than the USMS record in that event, only because of an administrative paperwork requirement. I think that's an absurd model to encourage.
I disagree that it's an absurd model (or very likely that the LMSC record will be faster than the USMS record), but if you don't like it, don't do it. I'm just offering you a solution that works until there is a rule change, if it happens. You have to decide what serves your swimmers best.
Most people who have the possibility of breaking a USMS or FINA record will follow the current rules, including administrivial ones. As a swimmer, I've never found split requests to be much of a hassle: it takes like 30 seconds. If it is important enough for me (as Top Ten Recorder) to go to the effort of getting the time to count, it should be worth 30 seconds of the swimmer's time.
Personally, I think Jim's suggestion of an online request for your splits to "count" -- to appear in the meet results database (ie, in the Current Event Ranking) -- and be submitted for Top Ten is the way to go.
not everyone wants their splits to "count," so how do you deal with that?
I think you are missing my point. I am not interested in forcing people's unrequested splits to be listed in the times database, top ten, etc. I am merely interested in allowing them to be if they want to. The current rule does not allow them to make this request.
-Rick
Again, to be clear... I am not trying to establish that top ten tabulators need to be expected to dig through initial splits by hand looking for all possible new records or top ten swims.
(I do think, though, as a logical next step... is that given this age of computers, we ought to have the automated tools available so that, for example, if a 1000 split on a 1650 is a new record at the LMSC or USMS level, our computer systems ought to be able to notice that without any extra work. I recognize that we may not be there yet, but I think that ought to be a goal. Frankly, most of the younger swimmers expect that the computers are keeping track of all of this, and are surprised that there is still so much human work behind the scenes.)
From a rules perspective, I'm merely interested in making it possible so that, for example, a TT tabulator would be allowed to accept an "unrequested" split time as a TT time. Right now, it is against the rules to do so.
-Rick
Anyway, I can bring this up at a future Recs & Tabulation Committee meeting and see what happens. But if Rick wants to ensure that there is a proposal at the next Convention to change the existing rule -- or that such a proposal is crafted to his liking -- then he should submit one himself.
I'm also working with the New England TT recorder, who is involved with the Records and Tabulation Committee to see if that committee has an interest/stake in this. And will chat more directly with Kathy about any ramifications. And will probably put together a formal proposal to go through my LMSC Chair. If there are others from other LMSCs that feel similarly to me, I imagine that something like this could be co-sponsored by multiple LMSCs.
(But, most of this will need to take place in a few weeks.... after I get through our 1064-swimmer NE LMSC championships this week-end.)
-Rick
I think you are missing my point. I am not interested in forcing people's unrequested splits to be listed in the times database, top ten, etc. I am merely interested in allowing them to be if they want to. The current rule does not allow them to make this request.
-Rick
So, to be clear here: what you want is to change the rule to lengthen the time frame of the request: instead of by the end of the meet, the request can be made at any time. Or maybe within a year or by the end of the season (times shouldn't be retroactively added to Top Ten, IMO). Except for backstroke splits, or initial relay legs.
This serves to encourage a model where there is the real possibility of LMSC records in some events being faster than the USMS record in that event, only because of an administrative paperwork requirement. I think that's an absurd model to encourage.
-Rick
I respectfully disagree with this. Similarly, team records are not official in the eyes of USMS. My team used to hold an annual "Fun Meet" with other local teams. All swimmers were required to be USMS registered for insurance, but it was not a USMS sanctioned (or recognized) meet. That way we didn't have to have all the required officials, pool certs, etc. It was a Saturday evening where we swam some events and then had a social afterwards. The team agreed that times would be eligible for our own team records. So sure - it is entirely possible that somebody could do a time that was faster than the USMS record but it would only be a team record. What harm is done if the team is ok with this? I don't think that is an absurd model.
Jeff
There are still some people who don't like allowing splits for official times and would vote them out because it gives an unfair advantage to freestylers and backstrokers in the sprints due to relays.
It certainly gives freestylers and backstrokers more opportunities, but I would argue it doesn't give them an unfair advantage in any way. I think if you swim a distance legally and it is timed in accordance with the rules then the time should count.
It sounds like in the USMS world, the rule largely gets ignored anyways. (This is based on some emails I'm getting off-the-record.)
Here's an on-the-record example: I swam a 1500 SCM and knew I could get the 800 SCM state (LMSC) record with an initial split because it had apparently never been swum by someone from my state in my age group. Having never done such a thing before, I read the rules and tried to follow them. I approached the meet referee and tried to submit my split request in writing. He didn't want to take the form, saying that the split time would show up in the meet results anyway. I used the meet results to submit the split time to the LMSC records officer. This was apparently acceptable to everyone involved.
As Chris says, this is not a record that USMS tracks. It apparently was not an "official" time under USMS rules, and would not have counted for Top Ten (which was not a concern!).
How could a LMSC have a rule to recognize times that USMS won't recognize as valid?
I don't know whether my LMSC has an explicit rule or not, but apparently they are willing to accept times under standards different than USMS'.
Not that this means it's not a good idea to lobby for a rule change at the USMS level. That sounds reasonable to me.
