Does anyone know the rationale behind USMS rule 103.13.1(B)(1)? Specifically, this says that in order for an initial distance split to count as an "official time" (and thus, eligible for records, top-ten, etc.), the swimmer must notify the meet referee in writing before the end of the meet.
Does anyone know why we insist on this level of administrivia? This means that, technically, even as a meet director... if I notice that someone's 1000 split on their 1650 would be a new record... it's not a new record unless I remind the swimmer him/herself to write down on a piece of paper "Please make my split time count", and hand it to the referee. Before they leave the pool at the end of the meet.
In USA Swimming, the paperwork isn't necessary. Your 1000 split counts, without any paperwork, as long as it's valid, you finished the event, etc., etc. But you don't need silly paperwork.
So why do we insist on this paperwork in USMS? This seems like something that is doing us all a massive disservice as I'm sure many many potential records and top ten performances are being missed. If you swim a 1650, and your initial 1000 was a certain time... then your initial 1000 was that time, regardless of any paperwork you submit by the end of the meet.
(This is separate from setting up an expectation that these splits will be automatically submitted. That's a separate issue. My only issue is that if the swimmer does not write something down on a post-it note, that the window of opportunity closes, and there is no way to un-close the window the way the rulebook is written.)
I suppose the solution is to amend the disclaimer/waiver language for our meet entries to include a sentence "I HEREBY REQUEST TO THE REFEREE THAT EVERY INITIAL DISTANCE OF EVERY EVENT THAT I SWIM BE CONSIDERED AS AN OFFICIAL TIME.", and then that part of the rule is satisfied. If the USMS Rules Committee insists, I can photocopy all of our entry forms, and hand them to the Referee before the end of the meet.
-Rick
Regarding Steven Stuart's "on-the-record example: I swam a 1500 SCM and knew I could get the 800 SCM state (LMSC) record with an initial split because it had apparently never been swum by someone from my state in my age group. Having never done such a thing before, I read the rules and tried to follow them. I approached the meet referee and tried to submit my split request in writing. He didn't want to take the form, saying that the split time would show up in the meet results anyway. I used the meet results to submit the split time to the LMSC records officer. This was apparently acceptable to everyone involved."
As Rules Chair, that is not acceptable to me. Your written request for the split should have been accepted by the referee and your split time, assuming it was an automatic time, for the 800 should have been included in your LMSC's submission for USMS Top 10. Even if the referee was certified as an official by another governing body, that is not an excuse. We have written "Differences" documents for all the swimming governing bodies and, for USA Swimming, the Differences are published in both the USMS Rule Book and the USA Swimming Rule Book. MS2.6.4, page 120, of the USMS Rule Book explains written notice of splits to the referee as well as other USMS requirements that differ from USA Swimming rules.
Kathy Casey, Chair
USMS Rules Committee
I agree that we definitely need a rule change or rule modification. I believe there has to be a time limit on requesting splits to be submitted. Through the end of the season is too long; if a record is involved it could be beyond the 60 day limit to submit.
For the meet I run, I will try to educate the swimmers to make requests for splits before they leave the meet. At check-in (and throughout the meet) I will have a master list available for swimmers to fill if if they want a split submitted and individual forms to give to the referee before the event for those events where that is necessary.
Of course, convention may produce a rule change that will make this easier and better.
Through the end of the season is too long; if a record is involved it could be beyond the 60 day limit to submit.
I forgot about that. Maybe 30 days? Education is fine, but sometimes people don't realize the significance of their split (eg for TT purposes, LMSC record, or simply as a PR) until they see the official meet results. Often the results posted at the meet itself do not include the splits, or may be posted after the person goes home.
Again, to be clear... I am not trying to establish that top ten tabulators need to be expected to dig through initial splits by hand looking for all possible new records or top ten swims.
From a rules perspective, I'm merely interested in making it possible so that, for example, a TT tabulator would be allowed to accept an "unrequested" split time as a TT time. Right now, it is against the rules to do so.
I think submitting a split time for anything -- TT or record -- without the swimmer's request is not a good idea. If the deadline for split requests were extended to the end of the season, it should still satisfy you: after the meet is over, there is nothing to prevent the TT Recorder from informing the swimmer about some noteworthy split that catches his/her eye. Then the swimmer can decide what to do.
But, generally speaking, I don't think the burden should be on the TT Recorder to check all splits for potential records or TT times. Why shouldn't the swimmer take some ownership of this process?
I'm also working with the New England TT recorder, who is involved with the Records and Tabulation Committee to see if that committee has an interest/stake in this.
I've already put this on the agenda for a future meeting. Talk to Laszlo and make sure he understands what you want so he can represent you.
Couldn't a swimmer just finish with a touch on their back instead of turning over for a flip....
Certainly, but a S&T judge needs to be on hand to verify that it was a legal finish (ie, hand touch while still on your back). That's why you have to request it ahead of time, you can't tell it was legal afterwards from the lack of a DQ.
That would work for everything but Backstroke.
Couldn't a swimmer just finish with a touch on their back instead of turning over for a flip....
I've never understood why people do this and I think they should not count split times as records... if you want to break the record in an event, just swim that event!
Throwing everyone else off pace when you take your swim out at a pace faster than the race is a selfish thing to do. I'd be upset if I were eating somone's 100 freestyle wake the first 100 of my 200 free. :argue:
I'm fine with people who want to do, lets say a 500 fly and enter a realistic time in the 500 freetyle event.
just my 2 cents.
No, thanks. Until, or if, the system is automated, I think they ought to submit them at the meet. Otherwise you are creating an unrealistic burden for the Top Ten recorders.
I think that depends a lot on the LMSC. Some have meets every 1-2 weeks, while others only have 1-2 per season, and with little likelihood that a split will result in a national record.
I am all for preventing unrealistic burdens on (usually volunteer) TT Recorders. But if that is the main purpose of the rule -- and it appears that it is a big reason, from Kathy's initial post -- then perhaps it isn't appropriate to legislate it nation-wide. We could allow the individual LMSCs decide on the policy appropriate to their situation.
The thing is, the rule must be loosened at a national level to allow for LMSCs to have the ability to loosen the rules at the LMSC level.
Right now, if one LMSC wants to make this looser, they are not allowed to do that. Not legally anyways.
Yes, that was part of the point of my comment that "perhaps it isn't appropriate to legislate it nation-wide." In some LMSCs, being "too loose" might pose too much of a burden on the TT Recorder, while in others it might be just fine. Hopefully at some point split requests can be done online, as Jim suggested earlier.
The point that I think people keep missing is that there are two separate things going on. One is the constitution of an "official time". The second is any rules, procedures, and policy around Top Ten and Records, etc. They do not have to be the same polices. In fact, they're not right now.
Even if I do follow the rule on "Official Time", and make the request in writing before the end of the meet, that doesn't automatically make it a National Record. There is other paperwork that has to happen. If I don't submit that paperwork within a finite timeframe, the record doesn't count.
I'm not sure which "people" you refer to, but now you are talking about something substantially different from the "initial distance" (split requests) of the thread title. As you say, it is not sufficient that a time be "official" to count as a record: 105.3.8 states that the record application form must also be filled out.
I think it is entirely appropriate that potential record-breaking swims be subjected to an elevated level of scrutiny and that they should be submitted in a timely fashion.
The thing is, the rule must be loosened at a national level to allow for LMSCs to have the ability to loosen the rules at the LMSC level.
Right now, if one LMSC wants to make this looser, they are not allowed to do that. Not legally anyways.
The point that I think people keep missing is that there are two separate things going on. One is the constitution of an "official time". The second is any rules, procedures, and policy around Top Ten and Records, etc. They do not have to be the same polices. In fact, they're not right now.
Even if I do follow the rule on "Official Time", and make the request in writing before the end of the meet, that doesn't automatically make it a National Record. There is other paperwork that has to happen. If I don't submit that paperwork within a finite timeframe, the record doesn't count.
So I may have set a national record a year ago in my lead-off 500 split on my 1000 free. The time is official. I made the request in writing before the end of the meet. But the paperwork wasn't processed in time. No record. But the time is still an "Official Time".
Official Times are not only used for TT and Records. For example, it's not explicitly stated, but my assumption is that your entry times for USMS Nationals are expected to be "official times", especially where it comes to events that you need to make the NQT (national qualifying time).
What this means is that, technically, I could not enter USMS Nationals with my 500 split if I didn't request it in writing before the end of the meet I did the split at. Since it's not an "Official Time", it's not valid for any purposes, including USMS Nationals entry.
(I don't know if those entry times are validated against anything... they're probably not. But just because they may not be checked doesn't make it and less illegal by the rule book.)
-Rick
There was a long discussion in this thread from 2010 about split requests. Despite some good ideas, I don't think the rules have changed, except that at some National meets splits are automatically considered for Top Ten and records. The suggestions by Chris S and others for online requests within a certain time period like 60 days seems eminently reasonable. Why not just ask your Top Ten recorder to consider your split in that way? Is there some reason such a procedure was considered by the Rules committee and rejected?
