Questions about US swimming

Mel, I’m only reporting the rules. Apparently the LSC sanction chair doesn’t know or doesn’t follow these rules. USA Swimming rule 202.3.1 is very clear on this. Mel, this is what USMS is working towards. USA Swimming has not yet been able to get past a few issues on their side.

Not really correct. 1) USA Swimming sanctions can only be issued to USA Swimming group members (clubs) or the LSC. Therefore a USA-S sanction can not be issues to a USMS club. So your second question is correct, but not for the reason you mentioned. 2) If a USA-S club receives a USA-S sanctions for a meet and later add Masters events and applies for a USMS sanction; then the LMSC could issue a sanction. However USA Swimming should then revoke their sanction. I'm certainly in the dark on this obscure issue. COMSA has a dual-sanctioned meet in Pueblo, CO shortly. Here is the link to the meet information file: www.comsa.org/.../2007PuebloOpenLC.rtf Looks to me as if USMS swimmers enter and swim next to their USAS grandchildren and the results are separated and submitted to the two organizations after the swims are completed. I thought this was what USMS was working toward if memory serves from reading some of the committee minutes. So, Rob, I certainly can't reconcile your comments above with what I read for the Pueblo Open meet. Maybe NO ONE understands the association or lack thereof between USAS and USMS. It's certain that I don't.....

I have been reading this discussion and talking to USA Swimming Administration people and I have come up with a conclusion question about this topic. What would be gained by a Dual Sanction? It seems to me that right now its in the best interests of both organizations to have swimmers register and become members of the orgainization which they want to represent. That is defined in both organizations rule book and I can't see why either one would want to change that. I am all for swimmers joining both organizations and swimming in competitions that meet there schedules and goals. The way its done now if you swim in a USA Swimming meet and meet the critera for times in meets, you can swim in them and turn them in for Top Ten. Many swimmers do this and its seems to work out ok. If a USA swimmer wants to join USMS, they can if they meet the age requirement of 18. They can compete and swim and I believe they can turn in there times for USA swimmming toward Top Ten and Records. This is what Nick Brunnelli did last when in a USMS meet he set an American Record in the SCM 50 Free. It would seem to me that both organizations would have to make major rule changes and revisons in there rules to accomodate dual sanctioning. That observation is by reading Article 202 and 203 of the 2007 USA Rule Book. Right now I don't believe we have a lot of swimmers in both competiting and belonging as members in both organizations. I feel to be fair that a swimmer who wants to compete and swim in both organizations should belong to both organizations. Right now, it seems to me that there are more USMS masters swimmers that swim in USA meets as opposed to USA swimmers swimming in Masters meets. Dual sanctioning sounds like a great idea but when you look at differences in the meets, rules, and eligibility qualifing time standards its quite different for both organizations. I notice that the Coach and Club/Team in USA swimming has to take more responsibilty and control of the swimming member than what USMS implies in there rule book for there members. This responsibility is that the swimmer must enter with his Club/Team and the Club/Team has responsibility over the swimmer where in USMS its the swimmer that has responsibility over the swimmer. I was telling some people at USA Swimming how we enter meets and USMS Nationals and how we as inidividual swimmers can go online and register. I was told that this would never ever happen in any kind of USA Swimming Meet especially with a Zone Meet or higher. You have to enter everything by Team/Club/Coach and in certain electonic formats that USMS does not require. This is just one area and I sure there are countless others about the differences in both organizations. The bottom line is that right now you can compete for both organizations as members of those organizations and everything will work as long as you follow the rules and critera of both organizations.

What would be gained by a Dual Sanction?Skip it is all about the USMS mission and objectives. To promote fitness and health in adults by offering and supporting Masters swimming programs… To offer adults the opportunity to participate in a lifelong fitness and/or competitive swimming program… While it is possible for USMS members to also join USA Swimming, and many of us do, it is not possible for all USA Swimmers to join USMS. Skip, the issue of different rules between USMS and USA-S has been addressed within USMS. According to current USMS rules, for dual sanctioned events, USA-S rules and administrative regulations apply. So there is no need to make special accommodations for “Masters Rules” within USA-S. USA Swimming only needs to make a one line rule change to allow dual sanctioning. And there, in my opinion, are benefits for dual sanctioning to both organizations. First USMS historically has been more active in organizing and conducting open water events, dual sanctioning allows for USA-S to take advantage of our experience both from the administrative side and the competitor’s side. Not allowing the kids to participate is a disservice to them and shuts down a revenue source for meet hosts. Second, there are a number of USMS swimmers in areas that do not conduct many meets. By allowing dual sanctioned events it provides an opportunity for these underserved members to participate. And yes they can join USA-S and provided there is a senior division (not just 15-17) they could compete against the senior age groupers, however a number of our members are uncomfortable competing with these kids. And how fair is it for a 70 year old to compete against a 19 year old? Third, dual sanctioning is not a requirement, it would be optional. I would doubt, in fact I would discourage, pool zone meets or higher from being dual sanctioned. Most zone meets have a tough enough time meeting session guidelines. However as far as “this would never ever happen any kind of USA Swimming meet” tell these folks to open their eyes, it has happened and it continues to happen today. People who want to make it work, make it work; people who don’t, won’t. Finally, this is about providing opportunities to swimmers. Dual sanctioning provides opportunities to compete to USMS members and USA Swimming members.

Finally, this is about providing opportunities to swimmers. Dual sanctioning provides opportunities to compete to USMS members and USA Swimming members. Skip, I believe this sums up the desire for dual-sanctioning in my mind. I had contemplated swimming in the Pueblo meet mentioned in my previous post but other plans got in the way. It is important for me to have more local meets available, so that I can minimize travel to Arizona and California for meets. At the Pueblo meet I would not have had to meet qualification standards. I am a routine Top Ten swimmer in the 65-69 age group but haven't a hope in Hell of meeting qualifying standards for the top flight senior meets of USAS. Thus, I would be a winner by being able to attend such meets.

Skip, I believe this sums up the desire for dual-sanctioning in my mind. I had contemplated swimming in the Pueblo meet mentioned in my previous post but other plans got in the way. It is important for me to have more local meets available, so that I can minimize travel to Arizona and California for meets. At the Pueblo meet I would not have had to meet qualification standards. I am a routine Top Ten swimmer in the 65-69 age group but haven't a hope in Hell of meeting qualifying standards for the top flight senior meets of USAS. Thus, I would be a winner by being able to attend such meets. Couldn't agree more. I don't have the time to travel around looking for meets. It'd be nice to have more opportunities to compete. In the summer, if you're not doing a postal distance swim or an open water swimmer, you are mostly sitting on the sidelines. Even in a metro area.

I'm getting a headache from all this. At least I won't have to worry about top ten consideration... hahaha And Dorothy, teen studs aren't ready for the Masters level Studs...send in the Ande's and the Jeff Comings to humble them I say...wait, I'm not ready for the Master's Studs either... :lmao:

Well, some of our questions of Masters & USAS were answered this weekend, as I swam in my first USS/USAS meet ever. At the ripe (masters LCM) age of 27. It was the Potomac Valley Distance meet - 800 on Saturday, 1500 on Sunday. I will say I was somewhat nervous, but very excited nonetheless. I think the nervousness was that I didn't want too many of the puppies (and you guys call ME a puppy) smoking me, and thankfully, I think I had some respectable swims. 800 went well - I went out real fast (31.5), speed was hugely inconsistent, and the best part was being hunted down by the 14-year-old in the lane next door. I held him off... barely - me: 9:59.3, him 9:59.5. PB by 2sec from last year. I think I could have swum it smarter and done better. 1500, swam in a heat with 3 11y/o and 2 13y/o. I was the tallest in my heat by at least 15". The kid next to me was barely taller than my stomach. Swam that well; dropped 33seconds off my PB in that event, swim 3 years ago, 19:35.6.

Craig, I've never seen any notation that my times had to be from USAS meets only, but then I've only entered two in my life. I know that I may need to prove that I have swum a particular time in the past, so what I have done is entered exact times from certain USMS meets I've swum in the 2 years previous to the particular meet I'm entering. For example, I'm swimming a USS meet this weekend and entered with times from my USMS Colonies Zone meet last April. So if I swim a crappy 200 tomorrow and they question my ability to actually make the cutoffs, I can point them to the website and say, "well, I went x:xx last year." :drown: I would think if you should be able to use USMS times without issue, especially if the results are posted online for the meet directors to verify. It's not like you're totally making things up out of thin air.

I see this thread has been inactive for a while, but it's been very useful to me. I would also like to swim some USS meets because I really like long course meters and there are very few LCM meets here in the Dixie zone. My question for y'all is this: If you need times from another USA Swimming meet to qualify for a USA Swimming meet, how do I enter my first ever USA Swimming meet? My times are decent, so I am unwilling to enter 'NT' and swim against a struggling 15-year-old. That's just not cool. I thought about swimming just time trials to get official times for the next meet. Would that work? Thanks for any advice y'all can give! Your times do not have to be from a USAS meet but don't just assume they will accept USMS times. Because there are slight differences between USMS and USA-S rules, you need to notify someone (meet referee? meet director? I forget) BEFORE you swim that you want your times to count for a USA-S meet. That way the S&T judges will verify that you swam a legal race according to USA-S rules. Unfortunately you cannot do it after the fact. I tried to enter the PV Senior Champs meet last year based on times done at USMS nationals the year before and they flat out refused to let me swim any events (even ones for which there are no rule differences). They informed my team of this fact one week before the meet, which I was tapering for. I was...somewhat upset with the decision. Luckily the VA LSC was more open minded and I swam there instead. Bottom line: many (most?) USA-S officials would probably be willing to accept USMS times but you can't count on it. My situation was also complicated by the fact that PV is not my LSC and it was their Senior Championship meet -- for some "run-of-the-mill" meet the officials (especially if they know you) might be more lenient.