How much endurance training?

My first endurance set might only be 4x325's due to zero aerobic base. It's gonna hurt big time. But I have to leap to 3 miles pretty quickly and then build from there (uh-oh:help:). Donna

How about it folks? back to endurance training vs technique, or with one of my latest replies, how much endurance is enough? Of course that will depend on the distances....Let the discussion continue. Your friend, Donna Donna it sounds like you are on track and know what you are in for. If there is any way that I can help let me know. I was teaching a lady how to swim over the last few days who has Alzheimers she was a swimmer before and it took several days for her to get some of her swimming back. It is a terrible ordeal for the person and the family.

Fly Queen do you do Butterfly or Butterfrog??? I am just being silly. I do not think there is a place for butterfrog for anyone younger than me. Butterfrog only really existed before 1956.

How about it folks? back to endurance training vs technique, or with one of my latest replies, how much endurance is enough? Of course that will depend on the distances....Let the discussion continue.Your friend,Donna Well, now we're talkin.' To get the ball rolling, could you please answer my question in post #117.

Hey there, Crusader, I'll give it a shot based on your reply (#117) to this thread. Well, I already found out that Terry may have accidentaly contradicted himself. In the post above yours (#116), he states that he was training for a 1650 and spent March through August training for it (that's 5 months), and then switched to wanting to do the 400 IM (3 months). This far exceeds the studies he quoted from Skinner and which he agreed, that 8 weeks was plenty for endurance. I have to imagine that he was working on something else than endurance. It just is not. A swimmer can never have enough endurance, even if the swim is a 200 free. Endurance allows a swimmer to develop pace, and without pace there can be no strategy; well, sound strategy, for the swimmer has to know that when the going gets tough, his conditioning will kick in. Endurance is built through interval sets with lots of rest; intensity sets with little rest, and long swims still on the clock. When I used to talk to Don Schollander, we had great talks about this in length, and the importance of how tremendous endurance helps everything else that may happen, or that it keeps a swimmer from dying at the end of an extremely fast race (best times). When the body does not have endurance, technique is of little importance at that particular time. An example, which may or may not be relevant to others here is this: how could I possibly try to swim 18 miles without doing a pile of yardage? I would absolutely croak at about the 4 or 6 or 8 mile mark. I have to have the endurance to sustain 18 miles. I'd better have a good engine to go along with my technique or I will fail, miserably. I can't be in condition for a 5 mile swim, it must be much further. Now, the question of today may be this: how to go about developing that endurance? Technique will only delay the inevitable: no engine-- if I have not endurance trained. For the 1650, I swim it as 4x400s with that little 50 left over and I train that way and I swim it that way. For 18 miles, I will add one mile a month throughout training and get accustomed to that, along with doing 2 to 3 mile test swims for time. The faster I can do them, the more endurance is built. I just don't believe that a swimmer can ever have too much endurance; for me, it is that magic bullet. And then if a swimmer has good technique, they will succeed with more ease than not. And I know that doing recovery swims regardless of the distance is not the answer; a swimmer has to push themselves (swim fast) to get fast. I honestly believe that Terry is wrong about this and even though he believes it strongly, he may be misleading people based on his opinion without foundation (experience). He even states that he did poorly as an early swimmer, and is even learning now. But I suppose people need to try it both ways and figure out what works best for them; after all, we are all different "vessels" but we have to have a pretty darn good engine to move our vessel forward quickly. I consider endurance as a good, solid baseline to which everything else is then built. Oh, so I don't get slammed here, I'd better put in that I am using these examples for a swimmer with some good technique. Donna

The neural muscle memory thing does not have to be repeated every day, once you have it it no longer has to be repeated. I feel sorry for any one who has to memorize everyday.

Well I did another stint in the pool today...300-400 warm up 6x100 4x50 and out The firsst 100 was meant to be a 200 but I had to stop to cough.. I guess the congestion hasn't quite finished with me...I have figured out that I turn about as fast as a Greyhound...Greyhound Bus that is... 200Breast..7 turns..I am DOOMED!! LOL

This is very true, Lindsay. Unfortunately, the ability to hit the quote button makes it readily apparent who you are referring to. So how much is solved? Once things leave the friendly zone I would advocate avoiding the quote button. ;) ============== Personally, as has been said by several people in several threads, I think the soundest most general advice is to figure out what you need to do to improve and then do it. I think a lot of unnecessary controversy arises if you replace the first half of that prescription with what people perceive to be one prescription for everyone - even if it is the right prescription for 95% of the population. As a fledgling flyer I believe I need to improve my endurance so that I can swim enough good quality fast fly to imprint it. I have swum enough slow/distance fly that I can do a 200 fly, albeit very slowly, even when I'm not in good shape, but I want to improve my fast fly, and I don't think I am going to get there any other way than swimming a lot of (relatively) fast fly, and I think that means getting in better shape. Recently I took a couple seconds off my 100m free by realizing that my 50m split was way too slow compared to my 50m race and going out a lot faster. I also realized that I tend to drop my left elbow when I get tired near the end of the race. In this case I made a big improvement without getting in better shape. So, I would recast the original question to: How do I tell if lack of endurance training is limiting my improvement? Or more generally how do I tell what I most need to work on? I also think it is interesting to look at the world of running when pondering people's appetite for unmindfull endurance-oriented activities. ;)

Lindsay, The only one constant thing I know is this: without exeptional conditioning to withstand a given swim distance, technique will not save you. The body has to have great conditioning, exceptional conditioning, so that the technique can be used throughout the distance without fail. Technique is a wonderful thing, but endurance is primary to deliver that technique throughout a swim. And when a swimmer has both, a swim becomes a power swim for them with great reward, both in time, physical feelings and sensations, and completion of the swim without losing the technique they worked so hard to develop. A question now is this: how to get that endurance, what kinds of training. I have my answers for myself, I am sure many others do, too and maybe people will start sharing how they build endurance. And it may even be stroke-specific. Donna

Sorry Fort. I have nothing against levity,things had just gotten too personal for my taste. As to training for the 200 IM,my jocular response would be to say lobby FINA to change the IM to require whip kick on each leg. My serious answer would be to spend part of each workout working on one of the strokes and one workout working on all 4. Figure out the goal split for each 50 and practice the stroke section of each workout at that pace.Do enough oneach one until you feel that pace and have the endurance to keep it up for a set of 100s. Work especially on your worst stroke. I'd guess that 5X100 each stroke and 5X100 of broken IM's "mindfully" would be sufficient as part of your regular workout.