Stroke Rate vs Stroke Length, which is more difficult?

Zirconium, Even though I may incorporate a higher SR when I have to, I'd sure prefer not to. I don't like paying for the high-intensity at all; I'd rather swim medium speed with low SPL. Even with doing this, my heartrate is higher than I'd like it to be. I don't know for sure what "substitute catch-up style by kayak version" is so I cannot comment. But shortening the end push and reducing body roll would help to increase SR. And, I don't know about windmill faster either unless you are talking about turnover rate. If it is turnover rate, I'd sure have to say it has to increase. But to also achieve a higher turnover rate, I generally have to shorten everything up substantially. What's interesting about this is I swam today and timed some things. They were an eye-opener. I swam in a 33-1/3 yd pool. The following are some stats I came away with. I swam one length at a time. EZ Length: 16 SPL, 20 seconds FAST Length: 16 SPL, 17 seconds Length split up in: 6 strokes EZ, 6 strokes Fast, 6 strokes EZ: SPL was 18; time was 19 seconds. So even though I am moderately confused about that last set (where'd that 18 come from), it appears to me that I don't want to be a sprinter and my body seems to agree. The FAST length really hurt, but I am not used to sprinting so that may be part of it. And obviously I did not shorten up my stroke on the FAST length. I did this set 8 times with about 30-45 seconds rest inbetween. Nothing ever changed. Donna

Fortress, This quote: "My sole pastime, my only sport, was the purest of all: swimming. It seems to me that I discover and recognize myself when I return to this universal element. My body becomes the direct instrument of my mind, the author of its ideas. To plunge into water, to move one's whole body, from head to toe, in its wild and graceful beauty; to twist about in its pure depths, this is for me a delight only comparable to love." is me. :bow: Donna Nice try, Donna. :rofl: It's really Peter Cruise, can't you tell?

I don't know for sure what "substitute catch-up style by kayak version" is so I cannot comment. Hi Donna, By "Catch-Up" I meant one hand starts pulling when the other almost about to enter the water (freestyle). This style is also sometime called "Front Quarant Swimming". With this style, the glide phase is rather emphasized. Therefore when gliding, I don't pull, that is why this is less tiring and also why I am slow. The two kids I mentioned in the beginning of this thread all beat me in sprint! I believe the opposite of the catch-up style is the kayak style where both arms spin continuously in opposition like a kayak paddle. So my idea is that less catch-up = less glide = more strokes. You were right in your assumption about "windmill a little bit faster". I meant higher turnover rate. Sorry for the incorrect wording. Thank you very much for the stats of your test. If it is hard to increase SR for an experienced swimmer like you, I wonder when I'll get any results (I swim 2, 3 times a week). The FAST length really hurt, but I am not used to sprinting so that may be part of it. And obviously I did not shorten up my stroke on the FAST length. This seems to confirm what I was afraid of. It's not easy to increase SR. Your fast time is 15% less than your EZ time. By maintaining the same stroke pattern (than when swimming EZ), let assume theoritically that you had increased your SR by +15% faster. The energy expenditure is actually more than +15%. Because the drag force increases by square of the speed and therefore you'll need 1.15^2 = 1.32 more energy (+32%). And this is plentiful to push your heart rate in the red zone. In reality you will probably spent more than +32% energy. Because you body is not entirely immersed so it makes waves. And wave drag is proportional to the cube of the speed. So it is really tiring to increase the SR without changing the stroke pattern. The stroke efficiency has to be sacrificed in order to allow a higher SR. And this may mean changing a lot of habits. Even if I am willing to change my stroking habits, I have no clue on how to make this change in a gradual "learnable" way. Or may be it could be as simple as practicing a lot of sprint and the body will figure out a way to adapt itself to the new regimen?

I have on occasion used a true "effortless" stroke, when I am doing a really long open water swim.Then are you focusing on SPL or SR when you swim OW? I wasn't explicitly thinking about either. Think about riding a bicycle, if you choose too low a gear you spin like crazy without getting anywhere, if you choose too high a gear it requires too much power from your muscles and they quickly fatique. There's an "optimal" gear that maximizes endurance. Thinking about it another way, I was trying to find the fastest speed that I could swim but keep going indefinately (the threshold between aerobic and anaerobic swimming?). Other things I was thinking about: Wow, this is the life! Swimming with scenery! Wow, open water is so much easier when you have a kayak to follow! At the 5k mark: You know, 5k would have made a nice race distance... Hmm, the incoming tide is pretty strong, and really cold... I've really got to pee! Why can't I pee? Didn't I specifically tell my kayaker to go around this bed of weeds? Damn these jelly fish! Left arm, right arm, left arm, right arm, ...

Lindsay, This is a good description: "trying to find the fastest speed I could swim but keep going indefinitely". Yep, that's my plan on my long ocean swim. I may have to incorporate a true "effortless" stroke somewhere along that swim. I hope not, but I will be changing gears all through it, so my "effortless" stroke time may allow me a recovery; like an ez 100 inbetween sets. Your other comments mimic some of mine specifically I can't pee when I swim, I have to stop; too many motors running I suppose. But I will tell you one thing that helps against the jellyfish; a two-piece suit because you can get them out faster. I'm certainly going to need some things to think about on my swim with the exception of this: Are we there yet? PS: there are several people who are committed to doing this swim along side of me; they want to do it as a relay, separate from my swim. Keep it on your list as a possibility. 3 swimmers x 6 miles = Utila. Donna

Fortress, This quote: "My sole pastime, my only sport, was the purest of all: swimming. It seems to me that I discover and recognize myself when I return to this universal element. My body becomes the direct instrument of my mind, the author of its ideas. To plunge into water, to move one's whole body, from head to toe, in its wild and graceful beauty; to twist about in its pure depths, this is for me a delight only comparable to love." is me. :bow: Donna

Nice try, Donna. :rofl: It's really Peter Cruise, can't you tell? Fortress: That is not Peter Cruise. That is the brainiac Lindsay.

A small tangent here please. How do you count your strokes per length? I had someone watch me recently and we came up with different numbers. I counted each and every stroke, he started counting on what I would call my third stroke. When you push off the wall and are gliding with both hands in front there is for me a left pull (I breathe to my right) then a quick right pull, then the first "real" left pull. Now, I count those two (quick/shortish) strokes. The person counting for me did not. So, if I am counting 17 SPL (SCM) he is counting 15, a big difference. And yes, if I am trying to improve my SPL it doesn't matter how I count as long as I count the same way each time. But I am curious as to what is the "correct" way to count. Thanks, Glenn:)

There is a thread called "Help with Sprinting" or something like that started by Dennis Tesch which discusses this topic. I don't know the exact site. I betcha that Frank Thompson does though, cuz that guy is as smart as you. Help with sprinting strategy thread ================ I think it is important to remember that efficient and high distance per stroke are not synonymous and that efficiency is a means to an end not a goal, the goal is to cover a given distance in the least amount of time. The easiest way to increase stroke length is to slow down and glide a lot, but that won't help you with sprinting. I think that a big element of stroke rate is just rhythm - you try to swim with a faster rhythm and monitor what goes wrong, and work on that (e.g. I tend to start to drop my left elbow as I get tired). The unfortunate reality is that sprinting fast takes a lot of work and will tire you out no matter how efficient you are. People who believe that they will be able to sprint fast without effort by perfecting their technique are in for disappointment. Allen got to the heart of the matter earlier when he said that one has to look at a specific swimmer's stroke and find what is limiting them: are they slipping? do they lack strength? do they lack endurance? is their timing off? are they relying on small muscles instead of large ones? Distance per stroke is like the instruments in a car, if you adjust your engine or transmission or whatever you can use the instruments to see if you are getting better distance for the same gas at the same speed or better speed with the same fuel consumption or whatever. SPL and swimming golf scores, like car instruments, allow you to play around with parameters and get feedback as to whether the adjustments are useful. But you won't make a better car just by adjusting your speedometer and your speedometer won't tell you what adjustments you need to make in your car just as strokes per length won't tell you what to change in your stroke, only whether a change you are experimenting with is helping, and then only if you have held speed constant or higher. In my limited experience I would say that you most productively increase stroke rate by decreasing the time you spend in the less propulsive phases of your stroke. In theory you can increase your stroke rate at minimal energy cost just by recovering your arm faster. You have to be careful that attempts to speed up your recovery don't throw off important aspects of your stroke such as roll.

The unfortunate reality is that sprinting fast takes a lot of work and will tire you out no matter how efficient you are. People who believe that they will be able to sprint fast without effort by perfecting their technique are in for disappointment....In theory you can increase your stroke rate at minimal energy cost just by recovering your arm faster. So true. No wonder that Caped Guy calls you a brainiac! And now it sounds like you're swimming distances under a 100?!. Even smarter. :banana: