Stroke Rate vs Stroke Length, which is more difficult?
Former Member
This topic may have been discussed in the past but a search gave too many hits. I am very interested by your comment and advices for the following real scenario. This is for kids but may be this could apply to masters. BTW, I am just a parent swimmer, very interested in swimming in general but unfortunately not a good enough swimmer.
Two age group swimmers (11-12 years old) coming from different swimming history have opposite swimming style:
Swimmer 1 (let's call the higher stroke rate swimmer) swims 50 meters freestyle, taking 60 strokes. Swimmer2 does it in 45 strokes, with a time 0.5 to 1 second slower.
In general, Swimmer1 beats Swimmer2 in all distances (freestyle and back). Including a 2000 meter freestyle test set, faster by about 20 seconds. In this particular 2000m, aside the time and stroke rate, Swimmer2 (slower stroke rate) did it with even splits while Swimmer1 positive splits toward the last 25% of the distance.
Q1. Assuming two swimmers have similar aerobic conditions, which one will have better margin of progression? More exactly, would it be "easier" for Swimmer1 to improve the technique or for Swimmer2 to improve the Stroke Rate?
Q2. What would you recommend to these swimmers to get better?
To these two swimmers, stroke rate seems to be the winning bet. Swimmer2 was taught with a focus on excellent technique (and indeed looks better in the water), but is confused as this skill doesn't translate into better performance.
Of course, we are talking about SL and SR relative to a context where the swimmers already know about swimming.
Thanks you in advance for your help.
Former Member
I know there are so many things, sports wise, to elevate us all. I have always admired runners, but I just can't stand to be hot and running always made me hot. Maybe even more so because I live in the tropics and I have not stopped sweating since I got here (YUK). And here it is Christmas, and everyone is running around in bikinis and I just cannot for the life of me get into the spirit when all we have is coconut trees and palm trees. (Boy, did I take a left turn here).
So, swimming is my most pleasurable thing except at the end of the day and treating myself with one of these :drink:.
Donna:wave:
Fortress,
My SPL is accomplished by a long frontal reach, EVF, and finishing past my thigh, almost close to my knee, and I am entirely on my side and I do not shoulder roll; I hip rotate. Shoulder roll causes me to have way too much body movement and I don't want to wiggle my way down the pool.
And I do like the word effortless because it is an adjective or noun and describes the grace and beauty of swimmers who have a low SPL. You know what I mean, the swimming looks as if it is the easiest thing in the world, but when they finish, they are out of breath and one realizes that swimmer sure was working hard.
Maybe I should use a new term: water-strolling or strolling-stroke to better describe "effortless"????
Donna
How about "effortless-looking" which captures that it looks effortless while not confusing people into thinking it is actually effortless, i.e. without effort which it definately is not. There are already too many people drifting around my pool in an effortless manner.
I have on occasion used a true "effortless" stroke, when I am doing a really long open water swim.
It depends why your turnover is fast or why your SPL is low. If your turnover is fast because your thrashing then you need to work on "grabbing" the water. If your SPL is low because you are gliding then you need to work on that.
YES! The voice of logic and reason enters the discussion! :applaud:
Fortress,
M I do not shoulder roll; I hip rotate. Shoulder roll causes me to have way too much body movement and I don't want to wiggle my way down the pool.
\Donna
This is something I have read a lot about, the arguement about how a swimmers should roll. I would be curious to read Allen opinion on this one, even Terry Laughlin's opinion.
Should a swimmer rotate the hips and shoulders together or just rotate their hips, while trying to keep their shoulds stable in the water?
Anyone else have an opinion as well?
Thanks,
David
I really like Lindsay's description of "effortless stroke"; it should be "effortless-looking." That's it, because the phrase "effortless" would be an oxymoron in my book when it comes to trying to swim hard and fast without effort.
And I also would like to hear more from swimmers on why they incorporate shoulder roll or hip rotation or a combination of both. The pros and cons on this. If I roll my shoulders I have a problem with crossing my centerline underwater which is not a good thing because it causes so much extra body movement; a snaking effect. Swimming from point A to point B is what I always try to achieve and if I snake my way down the pool, I am adding a few feet to the distance to get there.:help:
Hip rotation, for me however, seems to be the ticket.:applaud:
Donna
Thanks, oh Great Caped One,
I don't think I have ever found anything other than moving in water than gives me so much pleasure. It's wonderful to find this out, yes?
Donna
Donna has a good point, Oh Great Caped One. Where is this from?
"My sole pastime, my only sport, was the purest of all: swimming. It seems to me that I discover and recognize myself when I return to this universal element. My body becomes the direct instrument of my mind, the author of its ideas. To plunge into water, to move one's whole body, from head to toe, in its wild and graceful beauty; to twist about in its pure depths, this is for me a delight only comparable to love."
Poolraat: Very coy! ;)
Who cares if it's "effortless" or "effortless-looking"?
I notice that someone finally had the good sense and logic to discuss OW. Personally, in the off season I do a lot of SPL stuff in the pool. Then, as it closer to fun time, I shift to some SR stuff. Because, as Islandsox said, you have to be able to do both SPL and SR in the open water, which is a mercurial, dangerous and challenging medium.
Thanks for all your advices. I am typically a slow SR swimmer. When I try to increase SR, I got tired and tend to slow down. Both of you and islandsox can interchange slow/fast SR. Do you make any stroke modification to accommodate the SR?
To me it is similar to writing with right hand and then left hand. I guess my neuro muscular skill is not adapted to higher SR. What do you think about the following plan to attempt to train for a higher SR:
- substitute catch-up style by the kayak version
- shorten the end push
- reduce body roll
- try to windmill a little bit faster
Thanks in advance for any comments.
So it is really tiring to increase the SR without changing the stroke pattern. The stroke efficiency has to be sacrificed in order to allow a higher SR. And this may mean changing a lot of habits. Even if I am willing to change my stroking habits, I have no clue on how to make this change in a gradual "learnable" way.
Or may be it could be as simple as practicing a lot of sprint and the body will figure out a way to adapt itself to the new regimen?
I'm not a scientist Zirconium, as everyone here knows because I am too wordy, and parts of your post flew right over by ballooned head. But I wouldn't necessarily "sacrifice" the SPL wholesale for the SR or you'll be thrashing. Think Popov. Now, none of us are Popov. But you need both; you just need more SR to sprint decently.
I think practicing sprinting, as you suggest in your last paragraph, is a perfectly sensible way of raising your SR. All the sprinters here will likely tell you that practicing sprinting is the best way to improve at sprinting. You cannot swim slow in practice and expect to go fast in meets (or practice). There is a thread called "Help with Sprinting" or something like that started by Dennis Tesch which discusses this topic. I don't know the exact site. I betcha that Frank Thompson does though, cuz that guy is as smart as you.
