Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics

Out of all the replies on this very important topic, I like what Solar and Lindsay had to say the best. But I also got to chuckle at NKFrench's reply. I noticed that Terry mentioned something about self-interest, sorry I didn't quote it in my reply. I know that it takes great dedication and love of the sport to stay in the business for how many years? Oh, that's right 40 or so. My biggest problem with Terry's response to this and other topics is his posting of his resume so much I forget what the topic is. The reason I am mentioning this is when I came aboard not too long ago and was referring to my Olympic days, a person pointed out that it sounded like bragging and after I thought about it, I realized that person was right. So, I now try to stay on topic without any reference to the coaches I had, nor all the work that got me to the Games. After all, that was a umpteeen years ago and this is today, not yesterday. Also, I have found out that people normally don't listen real well to those tooting their own horn. A lesson I learned here recently and am glad I did. Both Solar and Lindsay have explained their thoughts on this shoulder topic pretty well, and as a swimmer, still learning after all these years, I take their words to heart. So, again, my vote is volume of rotation can be harmful to shoulders. And most all of the explanations and descriptions have been kept simple and to the point and I am thankful for that, too!!! Donna

Hola Not only from wrong swimming technique. I have seen many injuries caused by improper stretching and exercises.

I very much like Lindsay's comments on this topic. I do not believe that shoulder injuries are due primarily to improper stroke technique. And, I can attest to this. Terry mentions his fast male and fast female flyers not having any problems whatsoever with ongoing butterfly training. But I have a different point to make. WHEN this happens, not if it happens. Our bodies are marvelous machines and ultimately perform for years and years. But after 20, 30, 40 years of rotation, things can start to breakdown. When I was young and swam AAU from age 11 to 19, no problems. When I entered masters and swam that for 15 years, no problem. But in the early 90s, my left shoulder broke down due to high volume, not poor technique nor lack of stretching. This was factual as I had been warned about it several years (tests) before it happened and I took steps to try to get more "time" out of my shoulder with more stretching, more RC exercises, etc. Everyone seems to have the answer to this question and I don't believe any of us really do, but I know for a fact from my experience that years and years of volume did mine in. Donna

If fly is not hard on shoulders, why do so many people on this forum assert that it is? Or why do they cut back on flyor wear fins when their shoulders are sore? Is everyone doing it wrong? Why isn't this anecdotal evidence as compelling as your own anecdotal evidence? The easy answer to your first question would be that a lot of people swim fly with a style that is hard on their shoulders! :eek: A possible answer to your third question is that it doesn't take a high percentage of posters having fly-initiated shoulder problems to generate a lot of posts on the forums. The answer to your final question is that Terry's evidence is less anecdotal than the postings on the forum. He is saying that he has a fairly large group of swimmers that he has taught a technique that doesn't result in shoulder problems and that his success rate for that group has been very high. On the other hand, to be equally convincing you would need to get an equal percentage of all posters on the boards to say that fly WAS hard on their shoulders AND that they were following Terry's technique advice and STILL having problems. I think Terry's main point is that there are many programs where shoulder problems are taken for granted and people treat them with ice and medication etc. without making a serious attempt at finding technique-based solutions. I think he has given reasonably convincing evidence that it is possible to swim very fast using the technique he advocates, although I guess he could further bolster his case by quoting some 50 times on top of the 200 times. To fully address Donna's point I guess he would need to follow a large group of fast flyers who continued on for several decades. I only have a small amount of anecdotal evidence to work with but in my experience with swimmers at my club a lot of experienced swimmers who say fly causes them shoulder problems are surprisingly unwilling to make changes that might solve that problem. As an example a big cause of shoulder issues with freestyle are caused by not rotating enough so that the arm is moving behind the plane of the swimmer's body during recovery (I sometimes have this problem when I get sloppy and don't rotate enough) and some people recover their arms in fly the same way as there is no side to side role in fly. If you watch elite fly swimmers you can separate recovery technique into two styles, in one the hands follow an upward arc of varying height, in the other the hands make a fairly flat recovery just above the water. In our club at least, the people who have shoulder issues usually use the arching recovery. Some people suggest that your palms should be facing toward the ceiling during the recovery, for me that causes immediate shoulder pain. Anyway, to "prove" Terry wrong you would need to find a set of people who are willing to actually implement Terry's technique advice, and, having done so, are still having shoulder problems or are unable to perform at the same level. Don't get me wrong, I have no illusions that I have the answers to these questions, I'm just pointing out the "logic" aspects of the discussion, and throwing in bits of personal experience.

That even people with good technique can stress their shoulders by attempting to swim more fly than they are ready for. I think I just agreed with that. :)

Agreed. But which "expansion" were you referring to? That even people with good technique can stress their shoulders by attempting to swim more fly than they are ready for.

So those of you doing preventative maintenance routines on your shoulders, what do those routines look like? Are they weighlifting sets or PT type exercises or both? I use the exercises shown in Mel Goldstein's book Swimming Past 50, and recently added the exercises demonstrated on the drill of the week section of the Go Swim website.

I will point out one thing and then shut up: it is possible to swim butterfly very fast and repeat with poor technique physiologically. Not at the Crocker level. Not at the Phelps level. But at the stubborn, strong Masters level? Yes!But not without paying a long-term price... So succinctly put. :D I think many of us may fall into the culture of "stubborn strong Masters."

I definitely resemble that description!!! :thhbbb:

Nor do I believe you are among those who see self-interest in my posts. But some do seemingly suspect it every time I advocate in behalf of a technique focus. Not just here but nearly anywhere I might post, speak or write. I'm sure this gets very tiresome. I think it verges on a mass delusion and sickness. This might be a bit strong. there were far more such injuries suffered by freestylers than flyers That's why I am willing to believe that my freestyle technique may contibute to my shoulder problem. But I'm still the most sore after fly.