Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics

If fly is not hard on shoulders, why do so many people on this forum assert that it is? Or why do they cut back on flyor wear fins when their shoulders are sore? Is everyone doing it wrong? Why isn't this anecdotal evidence as compelling as your own anecdotal evidence? The easy answer to your first question would be that a lot of people swim fly with a style that is hard on their shoulders! :eek: A possible answer to your third question is that it doesn't take a high percentage of posters having fly-initiated shoulder problems to generate a lot of posts on the forums. The answer to your final question is that Terry's evidence is less anecdotal than the postings on the forum. He is saying that he has a fairly large group of swimmers that he has taught a technique that doesn't result in shoulder problems and that his success rate for that group has been very high. On the other hand, to be equally convincing you would need to get an equal percentage of all posters on the boards to say that fly WAS hard on their shoulders AND that they were following Terry's technique advice and STILL having problems. I think Terry's main point is that there are many programs where shoulder problems are taken for granted and people treat them with ice and medication etc. without making a serious attempt at finding technique-based solutions. I think he has given reasonably convincing evidence that it is possible to swim very fast using the technique he advocates, although I guess he could further bolster his case by quoting some 50 times on top of the 200 times. To fully address Donna's point I guess he would need to follow a large group of fast flyers who continued on for several decades. I only have a small amount of anecdotal evidence to work with but in my experience with swimmers at my club a lot of experienced swimmers who say fly causes them shoulder problems are surprisingly unwilling to make changes that might solve that problem. As an example a big cause of shoulder issues with freestyle are caused by not rotating enough so that the arm is moving behind the plane of the swimmer's body during recovery (I sometimes have this problem when I get sloppy and don't rotate enough) and some people recover their arms in fly the same way as there is no side to side role in fly. If you watch elite fly swimmers you can separate recovery technique into two styles, in one the hands follow an upward arc of varying height, in the other the hands make a fairly flat recovery just above the water. In our club at least, the people who have shoulder issues usually use the arching recovery. Some people suggest that your palms should be facing toward the ceiling during the recovery, for me that causes immediate shoulder pain. Anyway, to "prove" Terry wrong you would need to find a set of people who are willing to actually implement Terry's technique advice, and, having done so, are still having shoulder problems or are unable to perform at the same level. Don't get me wrong, I have no illusions that I have the answers to these questions, I'm just pointing out the "logic" aspects of the discussion, and throwing in bits of personal experience.

If fly is not hard on shoulders, why do so many people on this forum assert that it is? Or why do they cut back on flyor wear fins when their shoulders are sore? Is everyone doing it wrong? Why isn't this anecdotal evidence as compelling as your own anecdotal evidence? The easy answer to your first question would be that a lot of people swim fly with a style that is hard on their shoulders! :eek: A possible answer to your third question is that it doesn't take a high percentage of posters having fly-initiated shoulder problems to generate a lot of posts on the forums. The answer to your final question is that Terry's evidence is less anecdotal than the postings on the forum. He is saying that he has a fairly large group of swimmers that he has taught a technique that doesn't result in shoulder problems and that his success rate for that group has been very high. On the other hand, to be equally convincing you would need to get an equal percentage of all posters on the boards to say that fly WAS hard on their shoulders AND that they were following Terry's technique advice and STILL having problems. I think Terry's main point is that there are many programs where shoulder problems are taken for granted and people treat them with ice and medication etc. without making a serious attempt at finding technique-based solutions. I think he has given reasonably convincing evidence that it is possible to swim very fast using the technique he advocates, although I guess he could further bolster his case by quoting some 50 times on top of the 200 times. To fully address Donna's point I guess he would need to follow a large group of fast flyers who continued on for several decades. I only have a small amount of anecdotal evidence to work with but in my experience with swimmers at my club a lot of experienced swimmers who say fly causes them shoulder problems are surprisingly unwilling to make changes that might solve that problem. As an example a big cause of shoulder issues with freestyle are caused by not rotating enough so that the arm is moving behind the plane of the swimmer's body during recovery (I sometimes have this problem when I get sloppy and don't rotate enough) and some people recover their arms in fly the same way as there is no side to side role in fly. If you watch elite fly swimmers you can separate recovery technique into two styles, in one the hands follow an upward arc of varying height, in the other the hands make a fairly flat recovery just above the water. In our club at least, the people who have shoulder issues usually use the arching recovery. Some people suggest that your palms should be facing toward the ceiling during the recovery, for me that causes immediate shoulder pain. Anyway, to "prove" Terry wrong you would need to find a set of people who are willing to actually implement Terry's technique advice, and, having done so, are still having shoulder problems or are unable to perform at the same level. Don't get me wrong, I have no illusions that I have the answers to these questions, I'm just pointing out the "logic" aspects of the discussion, and throwing in bits of personal experience.