Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics

One of the traps that a discussion like this can fall into all too easily is being sloppy about defining "perfect stroke". Perfect stoke for the purpose of avoiding shoulder pain and perfect stroke for the purpose of maximum speed might very well be different, even for one person. In the thread that I suspect prompted this thread Leslie said: I think you are engaging in somewhat wishful, highly theoretical thinking in asserting that a beautiful stroke alone can save you from shoulder pain and vault you to the highest levels of swimming. (emphasis added by me) I think that some people continue to have shoulder problems and repeated shoulder surguries that could be swimming pain free if they were willing to adjust their strokes. They might or might not be able to perform at the same level with the adjusted stroke, either temporarily or possibly in the long term. "Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics" is not the right question in my mind. Clearly some shoulder injuries are due to weight lifting or falling off bikes and have nothing to do with swimming technique. I suspect that for just about anyone you could find some swimming technique that would not cause them shoulder problems, although in some cases they might not be able to perform at a very high level using that technique. I think the interesting question is whether there is a technique that avoids shoulder problems and that it is possible to achieve maximum performance while using, or is there a "healthy" verus "high performance" trade-off? And how big is that trade-off? My own, evolving, model is that my shoulders can take a certain level of "stress" and then recover before my next swim and therefore not deteriorate over time. I can stress my shoulders more if I take more recovery time before stressing them again. The biggest cause of shoulder stress for me is movements with my elbow behind the plane of my body, and I have found ways to swim free, fly, and *** without any such movements so I don't have shoulder problems if I stick to these three strokes, do some dryland shoulder exercises, and build some rest days into my schedule. I suspect that if I swam 5000m workouts seven days a week I would have shoulder problems, both because of the increased accumulated stresses and because such a high workload would likely lead to breakdown in technique.

I think the interesting question is whether there is a technique that avoids shoulder problems and that it is possible to achieve maximum performance while using, or is there a "healthy" verus "high performance" trade-off? And how big is that trade-off? Excellent question. Much better than the way I framed it. Do we have any research on this question?

This is a straw man question. No one - including me - has made this claim. Lindsay has framed the question properly: 1. Are there techniques that materially immunize you from shoulder problems while allowing maximum performance? OR 2. Is there a trade-off between sound technique and "high performance?" My reply is an emphatic YES to the first and NO to the second. Terry: You clearly stated on another thread that shoulder injuries were due "primarily" or "principally" or "mostly" to improper technique. I'd have to look back for the exact quote. I've seen this "straw man" accusation before. But it doesn't matter because I like the way Lindsay rephrased the questions and I withdraw the objectionable word "solely." I think you need to provide more than an "emphatic yes" to #1 though. I'm particularly curious why, when I already have sound technique in fly, it still hurts my shoulders. I don't think there's much I could do to "immunize" myself with better technique. It seems much more likely that fly simply is hard on shoulders and that, to continue doing it at a high level, I instead should concentrate even more on strenghtening my RC muscles and never get lazy. Or else I will be falling in the "trade off" category. I don't mean to be argumentative, but I just don't like the view that technique solves virtually everything. I did readily agree that it solves many shoulder problems. In fact, I myself have been called the drill queen for obsessively doing drills to ensure proper technique. But when you embrace the position that technique solves "almost all" problems, I get nervous and feel like I'm being offered the proverbial fountain of youth or snake oil or something.

In 34 years of coaching I've seen no evidence fly is "hard on shoulders." You may have an anatomical condition. You may have pre-existing weakness not related to swimming. You may even have technique that's less sound than you think. Now, I only said "sound" technique. I did not say "perfect." (As you must admit, I've fessed up to all sorts of technique flaws on this forum and actively sought advice. But I do know how to do fly, Terry.) I may have "anatomical" issues. I'm told I have loose tendons and cartilege. If fly is not hard on shoulders, why do so many people on this forum assert that it is? Or why do they cut back on flyor wear fins when their shoulders are sore? Is everyone doing it wrong? Why isn't this anecdotal evidence as compelling as your own anecdotal evidence?

Are shoulder injuries due solely to improper stroke mechanics? Can we avoid all pain using perfect technique? Can we throw away the ice pack forever? Or can shoulder pain be caused by other factors as well? Vote if you have an opinion. No absolutely not. Swimming, like any other sport discipline, is subject to physical limitation constraints. Some of these constraints are shared by most human being. While others will apply only (or more) to certain individuals. If I could teach all swimmers to swim using Hackett's step arm angle (upon catch), chances are that many would develop shoulder or elbow injuries even if his technique is very often quoted as being perfect. That is why, well over *good* or *bad* technique consideration, there's *good or bad for one given one's own physical constraints* When you think about it. The goal in swimming is to increase distance per stroke (IOW pressure on various key points of the stroke) and stroke rate (IOW even more pressure on various key points of the stroke). I can easily understand how this may upset various body parts that see the amount of stress (generated by this accute pressure) increase day by day. That's why, logically speaking, it's probably smarter to cut on drag resistance before increasing pressure put on the limbs (especially during the catch).

Lindsay: How do you know I haven't been a swim coach? Are you on Terry's payroll? Thanks for the thoughtful answer. I will have to mull it over some more. But I can safely say that I do not fall into the category of swimmers that are unwilling to make changes. I also do not fall into the category of swimmers that are doing fly incorrectly according to your description and my own knowledge of the stroke. As you yourself pointed out, I think it is difficult to be an elite flyer if you're doing the stroke wrong.

Along these lines, are there common errors in stroke technique that do cause shoulder problems? I am new to swimming (just learned at 34 years old) and am experiencing some pain. I only swim freestyle and learned from reading TI (thanks, Terry). I went from struggling through 2 laps to swimming a mile fairly comfortably, but my left shoulder is sore afterwards. I realize without seeing my stroke, you can't tell me specifically what I am doing wrong, but if there are common mistakes you know of, that would be a start. Thanks. Dan

My personal experience from swimming for 32 years (I used to do a lot of fly!) and coaching for 12 years - fly IS hard on your shoulders - even with excellent technique. There are way too many variables to say it is due to technique alone. I think it comes down to anatomy and how your shoulder is put together. Fly is not a "normal" position to put your shoulder in over and over for any amount of yardage. If you are genetically predisposed to have loose joints you would be more apt to have problems....its that simple. Why else would Natalie Coughlin or Misty Hyman have shoulder problems? I wouldn't say their technique was bad! Countless other Olympic caliber swimmers with excellent technique have had shoulder problems/surgery.

Actually, my shoulder issues started in my late 20's, 10 years before I started to swim, so I can definately say my shoulder problems are not from swimming the stroke incorrectly. I do think that there is a genetic side to it. I am making sure my daughter pays attention to strokes, and does preventive exercises to strengthen the areas that are weak in me. Will it help, who knows? She is not a high volume swimmer, so we may never know. I know if I up my volume, my shoulders hurt. If I do too many push-ups, my shoulders hurt. I have to know my limits to remain pain free.

All, I just wanted to add a little comment that I have not yet seen (As moderator, I get emails on what you all write here. so please :hug: more than :argue: please) I think that you need to look at other things in your life. I tend to get a sore shoulder on the left side - especially as I get back in after being out for a while. What I have found is that I put pressure on the shoulder with other things in life like my computer bag as I come and go to/from work and my wife putting her head on that shoulder as we watch TV and the like. I have changed my habits and have found that the pain is nearly gone after about two weeks. So be aware of what else you do with your shoulders - maybe the swim bag is a bit to heavy to be carrying in on the shoulder. Leo