ah rules.
it is so fun when you actually read them and learn something new.
…
Chris, i think you have some cleanup work to do!Aren’t you on the Rules Committee?
(2) Foreign swimmers—National championship meets shall include
and welcome foreign swimmers, except that they may not qualify for USMS Top 10 and All-American awards nor set USMS national records.
Also from the Rule book”
May—permissive, not mandatory.
So maybe they are accepted or maybe they are not… Looks like a rules proposal is in the offing.
www.merriam-webster.com/.../may
4 = shall used in law where the sense, purpose, or policy requires this interpretation
www.merriam-webster.com/.../law
1a (1) : a binding custom or practice of a community : a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority
www.merriam-webster.com/.../rule
1 a : a prescribed guide for conduct or action
so, rules on swimming are the laws on swimming and the laws may or shall be enforced.
we are talking about rules and laws, not "mother may i take 3 baby steps"
No they aren't. They are the fastest times ever swum on U.S. soil (or in U.S. water, I guess!).
Thanks for the correction. Did the definition of U.S. Open record change over the past 40 years or was I always wrong:)
Foreign swimmers are swimmers that are registered with a FINA Member Federation and not with USMS.
This.
Chris, i think you have some cleanup work to do!
Why would you think that? To the extent that there is a problem (and I don't think there is one but it isn't my call) it's an issue for Rules and for Records and Tabulation.
Thanks for the correction. Did the definition of U.S. Open record change over the past 40 years or was I always wrong:)
As far as I know you were always wrong. :)
Thanks for the correction. Did the definition of U.S. Open record change over the past 40 years or was I always wrong:)
Yes they have. Kurt and Rob are correct in that American Records must be set by American citizens and US Open Records are the fastest time on US soil and these rules have been in effect since 1980 when USA-S became a National governing body and not part of the AAU where it was governed from 1979 on back.
American Records have always had the requirement that they be set by citizens of the USA. At one time the AAU used to list a faster time than the American Record with an * in the rule book behind the foreign swimmers name and time. Murray Rose and Jon Hendricks held American Records with an * until they started to keep track of US Open Records and this was around 1958. US Open Records were kept for only Short Course Yard competitions because a lot of foreign swimmers were swimming in the NCAA's in the 1960's, 1970's, 1980"s, etc.
In Long Course Meter competitions, there were no US Open Records that were kept because most of these foreign swimmers swam for there own country and if they happen to swim faster than the American Record it was generally ignored. However at this time in swimming and I would say the time period between 1969 to about 1974 most of the World Records were by USA swimmers so if a foreign swimmer swam faster than the American Record here in the USA, then they probably set a World Record. For yards competitions, they kept US Open Records for the fastest time recorded and it didn't mater what country you were from. I remember Shane Gould swimming to a World Record in the 400 Meter Free at the Santa Clara meet in June of 1971 and there was no mention of a US Open Record. This would change 3 years later
In 1974, the AAU starting keeping track of US Open Records and the only difference at that time between an American Record and a US Open Record is that if a foreign athlete swam faster than the American Record on US soil, they would claim the US Open Record. If an American athlete set an American Record in say France or Canada, then they would have the US Open Record as well if they went faster than the listed US Open Record and it didn't matter if it was by an American or Foreigner.
An example of this would be Ulrike Richter from the GDR set a World Record in the 100 Back at 1:02.60 in Concord, California in Sept of 1974 and its listed in the 1975 yearbook at a US Open Record and this still holds true today. The Women's 400 Free Relay that won the gold medal in 1976 in Montreal is listed as an American, US Open, and World Record in the 1977 AAU yearbook where today it would only be listed as an American and World Record because its not on US soil. USA Swimming changed this requirement in either 1980 or 1981. So you are correct as far as the AAU is concerned and my guess is that you are old enough to remember the AAU and that is why you remembered this.
ah rules.
it is so fun when you actually read them and learn something new.
and yet upsetting when it's been handled wrong all along.
Again, I disagree that mere membership in another NGB makes a swimmer "foreign" and there are a number of US citizens who are members of both USMS and another NGB (and who have plenty of Top 10 and record times). The deciding factor is which NGB you are actually representing in a particular competition.
But even if one argues the current rule is ambiguous, it has always been interpreted that way. Similar to law, when an ambiguous statute has always been interpreted in a certain way, someone who wants to argue that it should REALLY be interpreted in a significantly different way faces an uphill battle. It's possible to do, but you have the burden of showing that the current interpretation is not reasonable and that the rule was originally intended to do something closer to what you want it to do. Which I believe in this case it wasn't.
By the way, when you first PM'ed me about this issue before nationals, I of course ran it by the current chair of Records and Tabulation (Jeanne Seidler) as well as Top 10 guru Mary Beth Windrath. They both agreed with my interpretation. I suggested that you run it by Kathy Casey too. Did you?
