Much has been discussed on this topic but i wanted to revisit it after watching the track & field championships and remembering debates about how much pool training time swimmers put in relative to a runner competing in the equivalent event (a 400m runner to 100m swimmer).
What got my attention on this again was a recent article in Men's Fitness about Jeremy Wariner, specifically his training week during mid-season:
M= 200's: 8 x 200's two minutes followed by 40 yd sprints w/20 seconds rest
T= 350m: 2 x 350's followed by 1 x 300, one minute rest then a 100m to simulate the end of the race
W= 450m: 2 x 450's each under 1:00 with 9 minutes rest between each
Th= 90m: Recovery day each run in an "X" pattern
F= 100m: last run of the week is multiple 100m sprints
That's an insanely lower amount of training time than even i put in....Ande & Jazz come to mind.
More of this in an excellent article:
"Elite coaching special - Clyde Hart coach to Michael Johnson and Jeremy Wariner"
Here's are a couple of excerpt:
Clyde believes the principles of training are the same for many events: "I trained Michael Johnson like I trained a four minute miler. A four minute miler was doing a lot of the same things Michael Johnson was - a lot of the same things in training but more of them.
"The longest workout we have ever done - not counting warm up and warm down - would be under 20min, I think we have never worked more than 20min. That's not counting the Fall phase.”
So here's my challenge...I'm going to pick one of the next seasons (either SCM this fall or SCY in the spring) and try and adapt to this regime...anyone else game?
Former Member
One of the issues I have with comparing running to swimming is that we are not swimming all day all the time. If you think about runners when they are not running in workouts they are walking around. I would argue that they have a harder time losing a "feel" since they emulate somewhat their activity all day long. Unless you are a fish, you don't get to swim all day long therefore I think more difficult to keep a feel. I am not sure on this, just a hunch. I just know that when I take 3 or 4 days off from swimming it takes a little time to get that feel back. I wonder if runners have the same issue.
Former Member
Here is more from the track coach -- I am especially surprised by this statement: Clyde is very clear that ‘training’ is just that – it is where you get fitter, not where you prove yourself.
"We race when they fire the gun, we train to train.”
That is almost the opposite of what every swim coach would tell you. Here is more:
"Right now we are doing quantity - 30min running each day. That could be 6 x 5min run or 2 x 15min run, running some stadium steps and plyometrics. They are going to be in good shape.
"On Monday is 200ms. Then for two days a week for six weeks we are on the grass doing over distance work. We want to keep the oxygen uptake there. Some kids have never gone beyond 200m but they are going to do some half mile runs.
"I'm not interested in how fast they run their half mile runs. I'm interested in what they come through 400m in during their half mile runs. I put them down a cone at a quarter mile. I tell them what to go through in.”
Clyde is very clear that ‘training’ is just that – it is where you get fitter, not where you prove yourself.
"We race when they fire the gun, we train to train.”
So there are not big hang ups on what the training times are at this stage: "I say, 'Come through in 70sec and then see what you can finish in'. Some of them die, some finish strongly. Then you say come through in 69 or 68. When you have got the point where they are hitting half a mile comfortably instead of saying, 'We are now going to do 1100m' you say ‘It's 750m’. Then they come through faster. You don't have to tell them to do that. They give it a bit more as they know they are not running as far. Then you cut it to 700m.
"By the time we are taking them to train on the track I want them to be running a 600m. Then we stay at that until they have got their 400m time down.
"In March-April-May we get down to 450m. That's still 50m further than they will run in a race.
"From March we never run more than 450m. I give them 50m more than they need. They may be do two of them with a 10min break. Each one is in 57-58sec. We tried 15min and then cut it to 14min, 13min...I found that they could handle 10min. Michael could handle 6min to 8min rest. At his best he would run 2 x 450m in 50sec with 8min rest.
"The longest workout we have ever done - not counting warm up and warm down - would be under 20min, I think we have never worked more than 20min. That's not counting the Fall phase.”
Former Member
A couple of things come to mind ---
- they do some longer swim earlier in the year / fall -- 6x5 minutes, but before all the yardage pounder rejoice, that is still a lot less than what swimmers do.
- these guys (400m runners like Wariner) would never even dream of doing an 800 race. They just don't -- while most of us enjoy a little range in terms of events.
- if the sets listed above are at max pace, I bet you that it's more real race pace yardage than a lot of swimmers do -- even current college swimmers. I say real race pace, because many coaches and swimmers think they are swimming race pace, but they are not.
The key to me and relating to swimming is that you really need to change things up almost daily in your effort level and that means recovery is a regular part of training as is speed work.
Hard to disagree with that. I definitely feel like I get in a rut sometimes in training.
Rob, not sure if you "strayed" from the point of the article...but I'm asking because of your background and think you have a better understanding of this than myself and other "non-runners".
What I take from the coaches training philosophy is that its quality regardless of the distance. If you just took Wariners weekly workouts for a 400 and increased by a relative factor of 4 then does that make sense for a 1500m runner AND a 200-500 swimmer?
I'm guessing if you looked at a miler's workout it would be much more than 4x the yardage of Wariner's. I think remember reading one of Bernard Lagat's workouts was 20 x 300's all at 38 sec or under. Don't remember the rest. Distance guys might do 10-15 miles a day. I think swimmers are much more aligned in their yardage, intensity and sets than runners.
Former Member
JH but you do a lot else. So you think if one did your interesteing routines as part of their routine it would have the ame efect. Or do you think it's the absence of other swimming e.g. slower paced distance etc that makes it work?
I'm sure Ande will disagree, but I really don't think the absence of other swimming is the important thing. I can take it or leave it. I'm training for 50s this year, so I mostly leave it. There's only a certain amount of training stress I can handle, especially my shoulders and elbows. Better to use all of that training capital on sprinting and strength training.
There's a lot that goes into race preparation, and I don't claim to understand it all. There's flexibility, muscle strength, anaerobic capacity, aerobic capacity, lactate buffering, and on and on. All of these things take time to develop, and they require sometimes overlapping and sometimes contradictory methods.
On top of everything, however, is the amazingly fast adaptation that we have for learning motor skills. If you want to swim a race for a certain time at a certain effort level, you better make it a priority to swim at that effort level for that amount of time in practice.
Former Member
who cares about race specific training? this is just masters swimming, REAL swimming occurs between the ages of 15 and 25.(snark)
I'm guessing if you looked at a miler's workout it would be much more than 4x the yardage of Wariner's. I think remember reading one of Bernard Lagat's workouts was 20 x 300's all at 38 sec or under. Don't remember the rest. Distance guys might do 10-15 miles a day. I think swimmers are much more aligned in their yardage, intensity and sets than runners.
Lagat's a freak....1500m & 5000m is insane...then again I admit I'm just a tad skeptical given some of the recent findings regarding EPO use and the fact he did test positive once but was cleared:
Here's the article related to hardy that talks about EPO tests of athletes and the testing guidleines that was already posted:
www.nydailynews.com/.../2008-07-26_swimmer_jessica_hardy_claims_doping_inno.html
Having said all that...some interesting training info from the world of track:
members.iinet.net.au/.../aths.html
exerpts:
- Gebreselassie love plyo's and light weights and regualarly does "strides" (spped work) after workout
- Coe nver trained more than 90k a week and loved weights in off season
- Look at Japhet Kimutai midseason workouts:
Monday: AM 3 miles easy PM 4 x 600m (1:35) + 2 x 200m (24 sec). 2 min rest after 600m, 1 min after 200m.
Tuesday: AM 3 miles at 5:40 pace. PM 9 x 300m (35 sec), with 2 min rest.
Wednesday: AM 3 miles at 5:40 pace PM 5 miles on hills.
Thursday: AM 3 miles easy. PM 12 x 200m (25 sec) + 2 x 400m (58 sec) 60 sec. rest.
Friday: AM 3 miles easy. PM 3 x 600m (1:30) + 2 x 400m (58 sec) + 4 x 200m (27 sec) 60 sec. rest.
Saturday: AM 6 x 400m (57 sec) + 3 x 200m (27 sec) 60 sec. rest. PM Hill repeats
Sunday: Day off.
The more I look into this the more I have questions. Are masters swimmers and triathletes the most overtrained obsessive athletes out there?
Former Member
I'm sorry, this is not a workout nor adequate preparation for any distance unless you are competing against 8/9s in the 25 Summer League. This is in no way similar to what Paul is proposing. If all you do is the 50 and you have no desire to get better or do longer distances, this might suffice but as you get older and consider doing other distances this will cause you to fall flat on your face.
Of course. I'm thinking about the 200/500 combo at SCY nats next year. I've always kind liked those distances, and they suit me in one way because I'm not a terribly strong kicker.
Believe it or not, I went a lifetime best in the 500 (5:11) a couple years ago on less than 10,000 yards a week.
Paul brings up an interesting point here. Are we all in agreement that it's a safe practice physiologically to shoot for as little yardage at the highest intensity possible?
Not at all. I think your concern is spot-on.
