Why is it that Masters level swimmers who participate in USS sanctioned meets under a separate USS registration can't have their times automatically qualify for USMS rankings and USMS National records? What is the reason for this separation? The rules with USMS and USS seem parallel enough to allow USS swims to qualify under USMS ranking and records. Do we care if elite older swimmers in their 30's (say Gary Hall Jr.) effectively end up owning the USMS national record by default? Is USMS afraid of merging to closely with USS? Why wouldn't USMS want to recognize the true best performance by and old man/women in the pool regardless of whether their card said USS or USMS on it?
John Smith
Former Member
John,
I would say participation in USMS meets is the key. I doubt elite swimmers in the 25-35 age group would ever bother showing up at a USMS meet if they knew their times would transfer as records. I think the USMS values participation over times and records.
I really got a kick out of watching the 25-29 50 free with Gary Hall, Aaron Ciala, and Sabir at the 2004 USMS Nationals at IU. Rob Peel's record of 19. something had stood for something like 8-10 years until that day. If Gary had not blown his turn, he might be holding the new record today instead of Sabir. I would like to see more of this in the future.
I think swimming is swimming. I broke a Canadian record once when overseas, I just got an offical time sheet and applied to the Casa to recognize the time and they did. But they should be a member of US masters to apply and have permission from US masters to enter the race..
Maybe we should categorize records differently. Maybe it should be based on training. Who swims 2x a week, who trains 5x, who trains around the clock with a college team and is a professional masters swimmer, etc.
Don't forget the late bloomers division!
Leo:
Did FINA sign off on this about having swims from dual sanctioned meets count for World Records? I can see how it would meet the requirements because it would have a dual sanction and thus be considered a Masters meet. I just remember 10 years or so ago that they did not want to accept times from meets like Olympic Trials, Nationals, etc because they didn't like the fact that it was not considered Masters Swimmng but more like Swimming because it was only inclusive to what USA requirements are even if the swimmer was USMS registered. Meaning that you would have to make time cuts and it would not be open to all masters swimmers like masters meet are. I also heard and I am not sure if its true, that other FINA federations do not count swims by masters swimmers in Swimming events and can only count times done in Masters competition toward masters records in there Federations, similar to what FINA does now.
This is interesting because I never thought of the dual sanction and how that could be acceptable to FINA as a Masters meet. I wonder what Walt Reid thinks about this? He was involved heavily with this back then as he is today and this would be quite a change from the policy they set 10 years ago and I believe they still follow. I do remember reading about how these competitions were inclusive to certain individuals that made time cuts in non masters competitions but this was before FINA had time cuts for the World Championship meets, so today even in FINA meets it would not be open to every masters swimmer and that arguement would be out the window today.
One more thing, I noticed you said that USMS swimmers can swim with the kids in a USMS meet so they have the advantages of both. Does this mean kids can swim in USMS sanctioned meets if they are just USA registered because of a dual sanction with both USA and USMS? I always thought it was for USMS swimmers to swim in USA swimming meets and not USA swimmers to swim in USMS meets without proper registration meaning they would have to be 18 to swim via USMS rules. I am thinking you meant USMS swimmers can swim with the kids in USA meet and not USMS meet? Or am I reading this wrong.
If you are correct, then you make it sound more like a mere right for a dues paying club member who excelled than a true or real national record or ranking for a particular age group.
I could be wrong but I don't think USMS keeps records for times set by US citizens, I think they keep records for times set by USMS members. As I understand it Ian Thorpe could buy a USMS membership and set USMS records.
Frank,
Another way of looking a dual sanctioned meets is that we are holding two meets in the same place at the same time. One of the options available would be to comix the meets in a manner that looks like it is one meet (as opposed to giving one half of the pool to one organization and the other half to the other). So in this case, we dynamically assign lanes to each of the two meets depending upon which meet needs it. For example, in the heat prior to you getting up to swim in lane 4, there is a 16 year old USA Swimming kid wondering why/how this old guy like you (and me) is seeded in the heat faster than he. He was swimming the the USA Swimming meet in what was a USA Swimming lane at the time and you are swimming in the USMS meet in the same lane that is now assigned to USMS. So FINA doesn't have to worry about what kind of meet it is because it is a USMS meet.
About your other comment, unless someone has dual membership, there is no swimming in the other organization's meets.
Hope this helps,
Leo
Sorry to bring this up again, but this seems to be the perfect test case for all the above discussion.
My read is Gary takes the 30-34 USMS national record for the LCM 50 free at 22.45 from Rob Peel (22.81). However, due to more strict rules, he does not take the FINA Masters World record from Rowdy Gaines (23.21 in 1990)?
Frank that Sabir deal seems rediculous to me, by the way. he broke both records at the USMS nationals, he should get the records birth cert or not. How can his brith cert matter? I think he was 29 at the time. Its not like he was really 24 swimming up age. If he was 30 and swimming down, even better.
Hi Leslie,
Please re-read my first post to John on this topic.
I am definetly not a speed demon. I am old and slow. I do enjoy the 50 free despite these two facts:D
Just to reiterate, Gary Hall Jr. was entered as a FINA Worlds partcipant. So, according to the rules, he had to be an active, dues paying USMS member when he swam at Pan Pacs and broke the USMS and FINA Masters World record for the 50 free. My recollection of the entry process for the FINA Worlds required a current USMS membership number.
I really wish he was there. I had my video camera at the ready. More importantly, I had a kickboard and an indelible pen ready to get an autograph for my 6 year old nephew for his birthday. I showed him the video of both my sister and I swimming the 50, but it lacked the pizzaz of the planned birthday program.
Frank Thompson's most excellent post on FINA's stand simply confirms my very first statement on this thread.
From my understanding anyone who goes in a USS meet that is USMS registered is eligible for a USMS record as long as they meet the requirements in the USMS rule book. You must have these reqiurements meet.
1. The meet must be recognized by USMS and sanctioned by USS for the times to count.
2. You must show proof of results and have proof that a pool measurement has been made. For fixed wall pools, if you have one done since 2003 and there are no structual changes then you are ok. If you have a surveyors report that this was done since construction and no structural changes have happen to the facilty then you are ok. If its a bulkhead facility, it must be measured accordinly to USMS rules. I won't state what those are because they are readily available in the USMS rule book and the LMSC Handbook.
3. If you break a USMS or FINA World Record in a Master Meet you must meet the requirements of setting that record. You have 60 days to get that application with the proper documentation. Now someone hear mentioned Sabir Muhammed breaking Rob Peel's record in 2004 for the 50 Free. In fact he broke both USMS records for the 50 and 100 Free and was faster than Gary Hall's current 100 record. The reason he did not get credit for either of the records is because he did not get his birth certificate within 60 days of the swim and did not get credit for the record. He is listed in the 2004 Top Ten as first place and garnered All American Status from the swims but has a NV by his time and it seems that was never converted to get credit for the time as a USMS National Record.
3. You can only break a USMS Record in a USA Swimming meet. It does not matter what type of meet it is but FINA will only let masters swimmers set World Records in masters meets. This rule went into effect in 1996 and all masters federations were told to strip anyone that they knew in the past that did not swim the Word Records in Masters meets. I remember this because I was our LMSC Top Ten recorder at the time and Rob Peel and Shelia Taormina were striped of FINA World Records done before 1996. Even if you go to a FINA Sanctioned meet such as a World Cup the swim will not count as a FINA World Record. This happened to Jack Groselle when he thought he set a World Record in FINA World Cup SCM meet but it was not a Masters sanctioned meet, so no record.
4. To answer Paul Smith questions about his relay and setting records. If you want the relay to set a USMS record you have to have everyone registered with USMS on the same team. Meaning get Rowdy off Gold Coast Masters and with Team TYR, so you are all on the same club. If he has not done this then you better getting moving right now. Meaning you have to go thru the transfer requirements that you did to leave Colorado which I believe is 60 days. Meaning if that meet is in December, then I believe you are SOO Luck and your relay would not count for a USMS Record. As you already know, regardless of the transfer requirements you can't set a World Record if its not a sanctioned masters meet. I would hate to see you go to all of the work to do this and have the Relay record not count because you did not follow the requirements very similar to when in 2004 you guys went out of order from what was written on your relay card and Rowdy was denied the 50 National Record in his age group.
Now if you don't like this FINA rule which a lot of people don't, then you have to let our FINA rep know and get it changed like we were talking about doing with National Delegation entry as a opposed to the current Club entry for swimmers at the FINA World Masters Swimming Championships. I know why FINA did this and my opinion is that they felt people that break records in non masters meets are truly not masters swimmers or they would be breaking them in Sanctioned masters meets. It was said that they did not want Olympians and World Class swimmers swimming in non masters competitions and be able to break masters World Records by just merly registering and never swimming in masters competitions. They did not feel it was in the spirt and interest of masters swimming. This was the feeling back in 1996. Its been 10 years since someone challenged this. You and Goodsmith should go for it and challenge this if you feel this is wrong and unfair.
Frank,
Two things:
1) All USA Swimming meets are automatically recognized as are all meets of FINA member nations.
2) When we get the dual sanctioning all straightened out, USMS members will be able to have the advantages of both. They can swim with the kids in a USMS meet and therefore set FINA records. So all we have to do is to get the big USA Swimming meets sanctioned by USMS. The trick here is that all sides must agree to do this and the swimmer must be swimming as a USMS member. Of course that is a stretch since USA Swimming Nationals, for example, is for USA Swimming members only! But for those USMS members who can get into a "regular" fast meet, it may help.
Leo
