Why is it that Masters level swimmers who participate in USS sanctioned meets under a separate USS registration can't have their times automatically qualify for USMS rankings and USMS National records? What is the reason for this separation? The rules with USMS and USS seem parallel enough to allow USS swims to qualify under USMS ranking and records. Do we care if elite older swimmers in their 30's (say Gary Hall Jr.) effectively end up owning the USMS national record by default? Is USMS afraid of merging to closely with USS? Why wouldn't USMS want to recognize the true best performance by and old man/women in the pool regardless of whether their card said USS or USMS on it?
John Smith
From my understanding anyone who goes in a USS meet that is USMS registered is eligible for a USMS record as long as they meet the requirements in the USMS rule book. You must have these reqiurements meet.
1. The meet must be recognized by USMS and sanctioned by USS for the times to count.
2. You must show proof of results and have proof that a pool measurement has been made. For fixed wall pools, if you have one done since 2003 and there are no structual changes then you are ok. If you have a surveyors report that this was done since construction and no structural changes have happen to the facilty then you are ok. If its a bulkhead facility, it must be measured accordinly to USMS rules. I won't state what those are because they are readily available in the USMS rule book and the LMSC Handbook.
3. If you break a USMS or FINA World Record in a Master Meet you must meet the requirements of setting that record. You have 60 days to get that application with the proper documentation. Now someone hear mentioned Sabir Muhammed breaking Rob Peel's record in 2004 for the 50 Free. In fact he broke both USMS records for the 50 and 100 Free and was faster than Gary Hall's current 100 record. The reason he did not get credit for either of the records is because he did not get his birth certificate within 60 days of the swim and did not get credit for the record. He is listed in the 2004 Top Ten as first place and garnered All American Status from the swims but has a NV by his time and it seems that was never converted to get credit for the time as a USMS National Record.
3. You can only break a USMS Record in a USA Swimming meet. It does not matter what type of meet it is but FINA will only let masters swimmers set World Records in masters meets. This rule went into effect in 1996 and all masters federations were told to strip anyone that they knew in the past that did not swim the Word Records in Masters meets. I remember this because I was our LMSC Top Ten recorder at the time and Rob Peel and Shelia Taormina were striped of FINA World Records done before 1996. Even if you go to a FINA Sanctioned meet such as a World Cup the swim will not count as a FINA World Record. This happened to Jack Groselle when he thought he set a World Record in FINA World Cup SCM meet but it was not a Masters sanctioned meet, so no record.
4. To answer Paul Smith questions about his relay and setting records. If you want the relay to set a USMS record you have to have everyone registered with USMS on the same team. Meaning get Rowdy off Gold Coast Masters and with Team TYR, so you are all on the same club. If he has not done this then you better getting moving right now. Meaning you have to go thru the transfer requirements that you did to leave Colorado which I believe is 60 days. Meaning if that meet is in December, then I believe you are SOO Luck and your relay would not count for a USMS Record. As you already know, regardless of the transfer requirements you can't set a World Record if its not a sanctioned masters meet. I would hate to see you go to all of the work to do this and have the Relay record not count because you did not follow the requirements very similar to when in 2004 you guys went out of order from what was written on your relay card and Rowdy was denied the 50 National Record in his age group.
Now if you don't like this FINA rule which a lot of people don't, then you have to let our FINA rep know and get it changed like we were talking about doing with National Delegation entry as a opposed to the current Club entry for swimmers at the FINA World Masters Swimming Championships. I know why FINA did this and my opinion is that they felt people that break records in non masters meets are truly not masters swimmers or they would be breaking them in Sanctioned masters meets. It was said that they did not want Olympians and World Class swimmers swimming in non masters competitions and be able to break masters World Records by just merly registering and never swimming in masters competitions. They did not feel it was in the spirt and interest of masters swimming. This was the feeling back in 1996. Its been 10 years since someone challenged this. You and Goodsmith should go for it and challenge this if you feel this is wrong and unfair.
From my understanding anyone who goes in a USS meet that is USMS registered is eligible for a USMS record as long as they meet the requirements in the USMS rule book. You must have these reqiurements meet.
1. The meet must be recognized by USMS and sanctioned by USS for the times to count.
2. You must show proof of results and have proof that a pool measurement has been made. For fixed wall pools, if you have one done since 2003 and there are no structual changes then you are ok. If you have a surveyors report that this was done since construction and no structural changes have happen to the facilty then you are ok. If its a bulkhead facility, it must be measured accordinly to USMS rules. I won't state what those are because they are readily available in the USMS rule book and the LMSC Handbook.
3. If you break a USMS or FINA World Record in a Master Meet you must meet the requirements of setting that record. You have 60 days to get that application with the proper documentation. Now someone hear mentioned Sabir Muhammed breaking Rob Peel's record in 2004 for the 50 Free. In fact he broke both USMS records for the 50 and 100 Free and was faster than Gary Hall's current 100 record. The reason he did not get credit for either of the records is because he did not get his birth certificate within 60 days of the swim and did not get credit for the record. He is listed in the 2004 Top Ten as first place and garnered All American Status from the swims but has a NV by his time and it seems that was never converted to get credit for the time as a USMS National Record.
3. You can only break a USMS Record in a USA Swimming meet. It does not matter what type of meet it is but FINA will only let masters swimmers set World Records in masters meets. This rule went into effect in 1996 and all masters federations were told to strip anyone that they knew in the past that did not swim the Word Records in Masters meets. I remember this because I was our LMSC Top Ten recorder at the time and Rob Peel and Shelia Taormina were striped of FINA World Records done before 1996. Even if you go to a FINA Sanctioned meet such as a World Cup the swim will not count as a FINA World Record. This happened to Jack Groselle when he thought he set a World Record in FINA World Cup SCM meet but it was not a Masters sanctioned meet, so no record.
4. To answer Paul Smith questions about his relay and setting records. If you want the relay to set a USMS record you have to have everyone registered with USMS on the same team. Meaning get Rowdy off Gold Coast Masters and with Team TYR, so you are all on the same club. If he has not done this then you better getting moving right now. Meaning you have to go thru the transfer requirements that you did to leave Colorado which I believe is 60 days. Meaning if that meet is in December, then I believe you are SOO Luck and your relay would not count for a USMS Record. As you already know, regardless of the transfer requirements you can't set a World Record if its not a sanctioned masters meet. I would hate to see you go to all of the work to do this and have the Relay record not count because you did not follow the requirements very similar to when in 2004 you guys went out of order from what was written on your relay card and Rowdy was denied the 50 National Record in his age group.
Now if you don't like this FINA rule which a lot of people don't, then you have to let our FINA rep know and get it changed like we were talking about doing with National Delegation entry as a opposed to the current Club entry for swimmers at the FINA World Masters Swimming Championships. I know why FINA did this and my opinion is that they felt people that break records in non masters meets are truly not masters swimmers or they would be breaking them in Sanctioned masters meets. It was said that they did not want Olympians and World Class swimmers swimming in non masters competitions and be able to break masters World Records by just merly registering and never swimming in masters competitions. They did not feel it was in the spirt and interest of masters swimming. This was the feeling back in 1996. Its been 10 years since someone challenged this. You and Goodsmith should go for it and challenge this if you feel this is wrong and unfair.
