Why is it that Masters level swimmers who participate in USS sanctioned meets under a separate USS registration can't have their times automatically qualify for USMS rankings and USMS National records? What is the reason for this separation? The rules with USMS and USS seem parallel enough to allow USS swims to qualify under USMS ranking and records. Do we care if elite older swimmers in their 30's (say Gary Hall Jr.) effectively end up owning the USMS national record by default? Is USMS afraid of merging to closely with USS? Why wouldn't USMS want to recognize the true best performance by and old man/women in the pool regardless of whether their card said USS or USMS on it?
John Smith
Former Member
I hear all this talk of "noodling" on this website. Please define.
Perhaps this link to an older thread will shed some light on noodling:
forums.usms.org/showthread.php
By the way, I agree that the times should count. I want to measure myself (with my competition blinders in place) against anyone in my age group who is swimming competitively.
"Maybe carried to a logical extreme, your argument is right and Olympians should be able to claim USMS records because what you're really after is a true list of the best times performed by anyone in any meet in that age bracket. Part of me is just worried that the vast majority of masters swimmers, who aren't as talented and willing to get their butts whupped in USS meets, might find that purism disheartening. They might just want USS-only Olympians to stay in their own USS venue so that they can have some fun at their own masters meets swimming against super talented masters swimmers or those who are just trying to stay fit and have fun competing."
Leslie, I wanted to get back to what you wrote earlier (above) and make two comments:
1) I think the number of active USS swimmers who swim USMS meets is VERY small and probably always will be.....but I would like to see that change. When guys like Gary, Sabir, Josh Davis, etc. do show up (like Indy a few years ago and Worlds)..the reception they get is incredible and the overall interest in swimming only gets better.
2) As for any of us getting our butts whupped and choosing to be disheartened vs. motivated than shame on us and for the example we send to our kids and other swimmers! VERY few athletes every go on to elite status, far more who toil thru the agr group circuits have to learn to live with and learn from debate everyday.....it saddens me that much of societys direction these days is one of taaking competition out....worrying about peolpes feelings getting hurt so no more first place awards, no more valedictorians, no more dodge ball...etc. etc. The world is a competitive place and even in masters All of us have to learn to find motivation thru defeat, thru injuries, thru lack of proper coaching, thru crappy pools, thru bad weather........
Racer X......I will say this...as much as I want to see more alignment between USS/USMS I won't fault either organization for deciding theyre own rules. If anyone is going to play in either camp and is serious about records, times, etc. than they need to be sure to research and follow protocal.
As for Sabir.....I have not gone to his sight but if he truly is dissing on USMS than I've lost some repect for him. He was treated like a God at that meet, the pool decks packed 5 ' deep every time he or a Race Club swimmer got on the blocks and starts delayed beacuse of the loud cheering.
If he was really wanting to take down some records he should take a few minutes to talk with/email/read how things are run here......since we set records by age proving it is a necessity!
Paul:
I agree completely with you that mediocrity, political correctness and enhancing kids' self esteem by constantly telling them how wonderful they are have taken over the world. Similarly, kids now do so many activities that they don't strive for excellence in anything. I have told my kids to do the opposite and take an "angular" rather take a "diffuse" approach to life. I don't care if they're on the school yearbook committee one iota. I just want them to attempt to be really good at something. The world revolves around winning, like it or not. To say it ain't so is to handicap your child.
And you are right that masters swimmers should not be exempt from that reality. Thankfully, we can define "winning" in different and individual ways as you suggested -- whether its finishing their first 10K swim, doing a personal best, setting a record or becoming more fit. I personally feel pretty darn pleased with myself that I didn't quit swimming after horrific battles with tendonitis my entire first year back.I guess that's why, after mulling it over, I ultimately agreed with your conclusions about USMS records. I just felt like other people might feel differently, and as every has said, this is a site for expressing your views!
Lindsay,
It goes far beyond odd!:frustrated:
Add to that the stripping of Sabir Muhammad's National Records for the 50 free and 100 free SCY at the 2004 Nationals just because he didn't turn in a birth certificate. Go to his website and see what he has to say about USMS.
www.sabirswims.com
Paul,
I was being sarcastic. Sabir does not make any comments about USMS at all. If you read his bio, it includes all his major accomplishments in swimming including the 2004 olympic trials.
He makes no mention at all of the fact that he broke two national records in the USMS Nationals and beat Gary Hall in the process in the Spring just before the Olympic trials. It is as if the USMS does not exist to him. I wonder why that might be? This guy could be a major asset to the USMS now, and into the future.
Rules can be bent or broken, from time to time, if it's for a good reason. Sabir's national records should be reinstated. 19.44 is the National record for all age groups. Therefore, his age is actually pointless. He happened to be 29, so, he should get the 25-29 record proof of age or not. If he swam in the 20-24 it would still be the record, same for 30-34.
Making people jump through hoops for age, when they don't even drug test, seems a bit silly to me.
I agree with Paul & Leslie. I feel privileged to compete in the same pool as some of these extraordinary swimmers of all ages and the less artificial barriers are erected to record their performances, the better.
I felt that way when I started swimming masters in 84-85 and still feel the same way. What has also happened over the past twenty years is that I have developed a great appreciation for all the remarkable people who I have met through masters who are not elite but have overcome adversity in one form or another just to compete at their own level. Whatever we can do to make people of all levels feel included is a good thing. Not an official FINA objective, however, I fear.
RacerX:
It sound like you were in agreement with my initial hesitation about not permitting USMS records to be broken by a USS non-USMS Olympian who never swims in masters meets. Although I subsequently said that I understood Paul Smith's argument.
I still think this issue deserves more input from folks that are not Top 10 in the world. I was just wondering about what they might think of purely USS elite swimmers crashing their party or whether they, like FINA, might think it's not in the spirit of masters swimming. Or maybe they don't care since they are already facing ex-Olympians.
I agree Gary Hall's record should count. I clearly said that before. He is a masters swimmer too. I hope he does all the darn paperwork to get credit. My kids and I were at Worlds and we were saddened by his absence. I think they were more interested in watching him race than their own creaky Mom. And I like the 50 free too. It is my only freestyle event at the moment. :)
Leslie:
If Gary would have filled out the USMS Record Applications within 60 days of the swim at the Pan Pacs and went thru the applicable procedures stated on the application he would have gotten a USMS Record but not a FINA World Record because again this was not a Masters sanction meet and FINA will only accept swims from masters competitions for FINA World Records. If he would have swam at Stanford at Worlds he would have gotten the World Record because it was a Sanctioned Masters meet. Until this is changed, this will be the FINA policy.
Its the swimmers responsibility in non masters meets to make sure the requirements are taken care of. These requirements include getting a copy of the heat sheet, backup timing tape, and signitures of the officials as proof of the swim. Getting a copy of the birth certificate as proof of age if this has not been done. In the last 3 years USMS has made a rule that you must have proof of pool measurement for any USMS record to count. If it was a bulkhead pool, you as a swimmer would have to take measurements of the pool before and after the sessions of the swim. How many people like Gary Hall Jr. are going to take that responsibilty to do this in a non masters meet, especially one of the big TV international meets of the year? Probably none of them because its not one of there big priorities in life. This last requirement is the one where swimmers just aren't going to deal with because it could be a hassle getting a pool measurement and its not the host meets responsibilty to do this. All of the other stuff is pretty straight forward.
There have been many USMS registered masters swimmers thru the years that have gone to USA meets of all types and have broken USMS records and they have been published everywhere. But because the paperwork was not done, those swims go basically ignored in USMS.
It seems odd that the pool measurements were sufficient for the FINA (non-masters) world records that were set at the Pan Pacs to be recognized but not for USMS records. Would they have measured the bulkhead for the sessions where world records were set but not other sessions? Actually, is there a bulkhead at that pool?
I am all for having swimmers bridge boundaries between USMS and USAS. Why not allow more opportunities for swimmers to compete - especially in areas of the country where either USMS or USAS programs are less densely concentrated...
As for records and Top Ten, however, I belive distinctions need to be made. I have seen many examples of folks who train with and and swim in only USAS meets - yet sign up with USMS just to have their times count toward USMS top times too??
I would rather get destroyed by a regular USAS/USMS crossover (like Mr. Smith, or even Gary Hall Jr.) than by someone looking for one-time recognition. At least we know they're regular USMS competitors.
I will be the first to admit I am biased on this issue. Not only have I been shafted out of Top 10s by these folks, but I also never swam in a USS or NCAA program, which makes me take real pride in achieving Top 10-esque results.
