Fina Rules

No matter, no one can change the results of the past. I could rant and rave about the way I was cheated in the 1956 Olympics but it won't make the results change. George

Well, Wayne, I am not trying to argue, I am just going by the video of the 200 m. final.In the video I have they show the turns und pull-outs underwater.So I studied all the three medallists of that race:Kitajima, Daniel Gyurta of Hungary and Brendan Hansen.Well,I have to say that in that PARTICULAR race Kitajima was 100% legal, no downward movements on the start or after the walls.And actually after watching Daniel Gyurta I was shocked, because he dolphined VERY CLEARLY on the start and off the walls where you could even see the typical water trail that is created by a dolphin down movement.Brendan Hansen was perfectly legal... I also have a little footage of Kitajima's preliminary 200m. start in Athens and yes - there he had a HUGE dolphin kick. So here is what I am trying to say:I dislike seeing breaststrokers cheat with a dolphin, but we cannot say that Kitajima always wins by cheating.Yes, he did it before and I would question if he could win the 100m *** in Athens without the dolphin he made on the start, by he deserved the 200m. win, he was better and legal...

Agreed. Like I said it's over... HOWEVER, what angers me is how Kitamjima and his physics expert and coaches all now claim that Brendan Hansen's record (at Otrials I think the 100, might be the 200) was the best possible race he could have swum and that it was so techincally perfect that he can never swim faster. I have more of a problem with his lack of class and his atempt to cheat than anything else. Nonetheless, can't wait for Hansen to prove them wrong! By the way, did anyone else see that article?

beaten to death, maybe, but not agreed. As a competent swimmer and a competent S&T judge, I say that Piersol's turn, at least by the standards of US Swimming implementation, was entirely legal. He had *no* glide at any portion of his turn. I do not think that Karen's belief on the turns (il)legality was even accepted by a majority of the thread's contributers. If he is no longer pulling, but not started to flip, *that* would be a glide. Incidentally, if you turn over too far from the wall, by all means kick as hard as you can. But *pull* as slow as you can. As soon as that hand, or hands, rest by your side, and you haven't started the turn, you're done. I did see an illegal turn by Kitijama, others that looked OK.

The bottom line with any rule is it needs to be consistently enforceable. If swimmers can cheat--like by taking a dolphin kick on the breaststroke pullout--and the judges can't consistently catch this, then something needs to change. The easiest route seems to be to allow the previously illegal activity. I think the same thing happened with allowing the head to go underwater in ***. It was very difficult for the officials to judge whether someone's head was going under or not quite going under. Maybe it's sort of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality, but I don't know a better solution. Unless judges are allowed to view underwater replays after the race, and I don't see this happening anytime soon!

It is quite obvious he (Kitjama) did do at least one dolphin kick. His time should not matter, he should have been DQ'd. He did not follow the rules... the debate shouldn't be whether he swam faster or not. And I hate to say it but Peirsol should have been DQ'd in the back as well... he did glide into that first turn. It is so frustrating to be DQ'd for something, especially winning something like Nationals, and then have the rule changed the very next year! I can only imagine how this is magnified at something like the Olympics.

And always a HUGE dolphin on the dive. Are you refering to a downward motion of the legs as they enter the water? I didn't think that was considered a dolphin kick or illegal. Isn't it considered a legal part of the dive? My question is what is the motivation for the rule change? Is it because the no-dolphin rule is basically unenforcable without underwater cameras? Or is it just another way to keep the new world records coming? Did FINA give an official rationale for the change?

Wayne!You are exaggerating a bit!Yes, Kitajima did one dolphin off the start on the 100m *** and I agree it was cheating, but off every wall?---absolutely not!I have the entire video of the 200m. *** in Athens and Kitajima swam it perfectly clear of any dolphin kicks and still won!And just because he is smaller does not mean he is not as strong...Besides, isn't it all about technique?Especially in breaststroke?Wouldn't you be the first one to say that, Wayne?He kicked everyone's ass because he was better, that is as simple as that...

Judges do not have underwater cameras, just the human eye. Was there cheating? If there had been a camera on each and every swimmer I could imagine everyone in the race probably cheated. George

Phil, Do you think the backstroke turn rule is a good and/or fair one? Should it be eliminated? Should it be reworded? If nationalities can't even agree on its interpretation, doesn't that tell FINA something! Just curious. (And you are definitely entitled to your opinion :p )