Fina Rules

Since dolphin has been illegal in breaststroke, let's leave it that way. It has never been illegal in free or back. If we allow the dolphin, we might as well go back to the early 50's when the winning breaststrokers were the ones with the biggest lungs, because they could swim underwater the longest.

Gentlemen, I guarranty you that the judges saw this dolphin kick. At a couple of seconds off the wall there is clear water, and any downward movement of the knees and feet are to be DQd. People in the stands saw it clearly. I have seen thousands of breaststroke races, as have these judges. They chose not to enforce a rule. I believe it was not enforced because of his nationality. These judges are treated FIRST CLASS, live and eat like kings. They are very powerfull. They are influenced by others in power. And in the swimming world, the USA holds nearly zero power. I can never understand people trying to explain away cheating.

Dima, Are you looking at an above water video? Are you looking at it with VirtualDub program? Viewing underwater it is clear that he dolphined. The man cheated, just pure and simple. I have always said Kitijama has the best technique of any breaststroker. Yes he could have possibly won by not cheating. But you say he did not cheat. He cheated in every single race, prelim and final. Look at his pushoffs in slow motion. At about 2.3 seconds after pushoff he dolphins. Every single pushoff. Harder in the 100 races, hard in the 200 prelims and more gentle in the 200 finals. And always a HUGE dolphin on the dive. Look I have spent a good portion of my life span swimming legal breaststroke. Many different styles. I have always hated cheaters. I am so tired of people saying he did not cheat because they did not see it. THAT IS THE POINT of cheating, to get away with it. To many swimmers it may look legal because they do not know the rules. But ask any real breaststroker and they know the rules backwards and forwards. I begin most clinics with the rules, because breaststroke has always been dominated by the rule gnomes. Did you know in *** and fly you do not have to touch with both hands level? That is legal. Any downwards dolphin of any magnitude is NOT legal.

Originally posted by breastroker He cheated in every single race, prelim and final. Not true. If you look at the video of the underwater footage broadcast on national television, not only were Kitajima's pullouts clearly different in all of the 200 races compared with the 100 meter final, but the commentators pointed it out. They showed the differences between the 100 meter final and the 200 meter swims, and did commentary about it. IMHO, if you're gonna come on these forums and be a blowhard know-it-all, it might not be a bad idea to first pay attention to what actually happened.

Ok ... I am going to try and not fly off the hanles on this one ... First of all Peirsol did NOTHING wrong. There is NO way he should have dq'ed. The rule is a full stroke - I don't not believe it says anything about gliding. That actually would be detrimental to the swimmer. Aaron did exactly what the other seven swimmers in that final did. He was dq'ed because he defended his friend and rightfully re-instated. I think Kitajima cheated. The race came down to seconds ... tenths of seconds actually ... .17. Could a dolphin kick off the wall give you that much absolutely. So I contend that Hansen actually swam faster. I also think it's hard to tell above water whether a swimmer dolphin kicked or not. The underwater footage clearly showed Kitajima dolphin kicking off of every wall in the 100 and 200 (at least that is what I remember- don't have the tape). He won by 1.3 in the 200 - again a single dolphin kick would have given him that (let alone three or four). The other reason I contend he cheated, after all that controversy he was being watched like crazy in the medley relay and that was the only race he didn't clearly dolphin kick off of. His split was .02 ahead of Hansen's split. So maybe we would have won anyway, who knows, but that race wasn't fair. Props to Hansen for handling it in a classy way and props to Aaron for sticking up for his friend! On a lighter note, one of my teammates has a VERY BAD habit of dolphin kicking into the wall on breaststroke. My coach (to make a point) asked me if that was okay, and I said something along the lines of "it'll win you the gold in the Olympics." My coach just laughed.

Originally posted by breastroker Gentlemen, I guarranty you that the judges saw this dolphin kick. At a couple of seconds off the wall there is clear water, and any downward movement of the knees and feet are to be DQd. People in the stands saw it clearly. . Can you explain to us which one is THIS DOLPHIN KICK you are talking about?We all agree that he did it on the 100m race, is that what you are referring to?Because before you said that Kitajima did it in every single race, 100 or 200, which is not true.So are we talking about THIS dolphin kick now or ...???

Originally posted by SwiminONandON . The underwater footage clearly showed Kitajima dolphin kicking off of every wall in the 100 and 200 (at least that is what I remember- don't have the tape). He won by 1.3 in the 200 - again a single dolphin kick would have given him that (let alone three or four). You remember wrong, at least for the 200!Yes, he cheated in 100, but I suggest you get the tape and watch the 200, that is what I did before I came here to defend my point(I would like to state that it is not an opinion, because if you watch the video, you KNOW, NOT THINK)

Heather, I am not fired up or "heated" about this discussion at all... just because it's hard to tell on these forums. :p But what Lindsay pointed out was beaten to death in another thread awhile ago. I can't remember which one, but Peirsol should have been DQd. I remember watching that race for the first time and cringing because his first turn should have a DQ. I felt so bad for him but wasn't suprised when the DQ'd him. I too, agreeing with you, think that the glide is only a detriment into the wall- why it's worded the way it is is absurd. It should be reworded or dropped altogether. At Nationals in 199something I went a 2:16 200 back and got 2nd (my life best by 6 seconds) and was told I glided in to the first turn. Ugh. I was so upset, that's why I said I couldn't imagine that happening at the Olympics!

Thanks for the rule ... hmm ... guess you really need to nail those walls, huh? I thought the rule just spoke to the arm pull. I fully admit that I am going on memory of the 200 *** here ... I thought I remembered Kitajima dolphin kicking on both the 100 and 200 and only cleaning that up for the relay. I would love the rewatch the 200 ... I also thought that the announcers harped on Kitajima in the 200 for the kick, maybe they just replayed the 100 footage. This was nearly 8 months ago so I could be wrong. The point is, however, that he did cheat in the Olympics. Sure thousands of athletes have cheated whether by steroids or illegal turns ... I like to think for the most part that athletes compete clean and do not try to cheat. Perhaps I am living in a bit of a dream world, but I like my little dream world. As for the gliding thing for Peirsol ... I don't understand the rule because it seems to me that turning onto your stomach and gliding would slow you down. I would think it would be better to take an extra stroke before turning than it would be to flip over as long as you aren't kicking or pulling anymore. Peirsol's turn I will defend until my dying day. I had someone tell me once that if I flipped too early in backstroke to kick like hell ... guess I better not employ that method. Oh well, things are getting too heated in here for me ... let's all just get along. What's done is done. As for the rule change itself, I'd love to see it. An extra dolphin on breaststroke would help me tons!

Suitchaser, if you persist in personal attacks, then you better be able to prove your own expertise. Viewing the video at full speed Kitijama does not look as bad in the 200 *** final. Yet he still gained advantage will a smaller dolphin at the start of his pulldowns, and a huge one on the start. He clearly had dolphin kicks during the 200 prelims, and lesser ones in the finals when the whole world was watching. He never should have made it to the finals, his dolphin kicks should have DQ'd him during the prelims. I ask you people, are you watching this in slow motion? Backwards and forwards? Because watching your video from the Olympics does not show this clearly at normal speed. The underwater videos posted on the internet after the Olympics is better. Allen Stark is a long time breaststroker, I am sure he knows what can be seen fron the judges perspective and what can't be seen. These judges saw the violation of Kitijama in the 100, and 200 prelims as chose to ignor it. His violations in the finals were so subtle that the judges probably did not consider it bad enough to DQ. I am sure they were relieved that Kitijama chose not to cheat as badly that the whole world could see it.