TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...

Thanks -- I have a pretty straight arm recovery (or maybe the V-shape) so am relieved to know that I still have Olympic potential (;) Hee hee. I had asked that question for my own purposes since I had various coaches on my case about it...but some world class swimmers do have straight arm recovery. Also appreciate the additional TI and stroke information. I can clarify that this guy had basic freestyle flaws. I am sure that coaches A-Z would see the same flaws. I will let you all know how it goes Tuesday now that I am armed with lots of information, and even printed out a couple articles for him. Happy swimming!:p

I was going to post a first reply, but thought I would wait for people to respond, who knew what they were talking about. :D Three thoughts: 1) Reaching as far as you can above the water before entering the water will put an awful lot of stress on your shoulder. (For the same reason that you don't try to power your stroke too soon: no leverage for your muscles.) 2) It is correct that your hand will encounter resistance in the water if it enters just above the head. But remember, while your hand is above the water, your head and shoulders are generating *more* resistance in the water. Part of the reason to put the hand in (at less than full arm extension) is to make you more streamlined. 3) A rotary stroke sounds inefficient to me. Unless you are at all-out sprint (which seems to be the example people are giving here), your arm recovery above water will be quicker than your underwater pull. This will automatically make you "front-quadrant".

Originally posted by ShariL ... ...but some world class swimmers do have straight arm recovery. ... Happy swimming!:p The straight arm recovery, is called the 'Australian crawl'. Michael Klim (Aus.) has a straight arm recovery and rotary style. He did the 48.18 in 100 free, as lead-off of 4x100 free Australian relay, in the 2000 Olympics, with a rotary straight arm. 48.18 was a world record then, but a few days later van den Hoogenband (Ned.) broke Klim's world record, with a 47.84 and a different style. Another rotary straight arm competitor, is Chris Fydler (Aus.), who I have seen in 1994 after the Commonwealth Games in Victoria, Canada. For the most part of the 90s he was the #1 Australian sprinter, and at the 2000 Olympics he was variously the #1 and #2 Australian sprinter. Janet Evans (U.S.), a distance swimmer, had straight arm recovery. Inge de Bruijn (Ned.), #1 sprinter in the world, swims rotary straight arm. Alex. Popov (Rus.) has a V-shape arm and rotary style. The V-shape is more common than the straight arm, but the V-shape is still not "...putting their hand in right by their head...". Regarding information on T.I., Matt on this board (he posted twice earlier in this thread) and a few others (who posted a little in this thread), they know plenty about it.

Shari, Please, read Emmett's article on Front Quadrant Swimming. (www.usms.org/.../circles.htm) To answer your specific question on reach, your swimmer is DEAD WRONG about not making full extension. As I understand the TI paradigm, we talk about not just reaching fully forward towards the other end of the pool (hence the phrase "swimming taller," but it also means more than simply full reach forward), but also a momentary, fraction of a second glide in that position (on your side, BTW) as the recovering arm moves forward. I want to emphasize, exactly where his recovering hand enters the water is not terribly important. What is important is full extension on his side and waiting until the hand on his recovering arm passes his ear before initiating the pull and roll to the other side. When you see the video, look at the switch drills very carefully ("stop-stop-switch," and "triple switch"). Please also note how many of the earlier drills work on getting comfortable fully reaching forward, and just kicking, while on your side. Not sure where he got the idea of cutting his pull short at the very beginning. As far as TI being good ONLY for triathletes, that is a bum rap. Yes, TI is particularly useful for triathletes and beginners because it is a structured program that addresses their most common stroke flaws without piling on miles of yards to help them "get into shape" before they work on mechanics. However, as I have previously indicated, Adrienne Binder, world ranked in the 1500m, follows TI. If I can drag Paul Smith into this discussion (kicking and screaming, perhaps), there are many elements of his training program that sound like they have TI concepts in them (Paul may or may not agree with that characterization). The Orchard Park High School girls swim team follows TI, and they are routinely in the hunt for the NY State HS Championship (see "Long Strokes in a Short Season," by their head coach). And if I can add my own humble self, I swam varsity high school, D-III college, and many years of Masters, discovered TI in 2001, and am now swimming faster in all races at 42 than I was swimming at 32. TI is one of several ways to approach swimming. It may or may not be for you, but it does work for those who like it. Matt

Are the "Australian crawlers" also likely to be butterflyers? I was a LD freestyler (not a sprinter at all) and a butterflyer. I always did like Australia. :cool:

Shari, It's hard to answer your question with any definiteness because we can't see the swimmer in question. In general, if a coach says "one of my swimmers is doing X, but I think he should do Y," it's going to be hard for us to meaningfully comment unless we can see what X and Y look like. Imagine, e.g., that a coach said "I think my swimmer is keeping his head down too much, but he won't listen to me because he says TI told him to keep his head down." Well, who is right - the swimmer or the coach? It's certainly possible to keep your head down too much, but having coached at a swim camp just last week and having viewed underwater videotapes of several dozen kids, I can tell you that this error is rare. Still, it is possible to keep your head too low, and it's more likely to occur if the swimmer has had the reverse problem and is trying to correct it. So I really wouldn't be able to say who was right without actually seeing what the swimmer's stroke looked like. But I can offer the following general comment: Both you and your swimmer need to be aware that the central focus of a fishlike hand entry should not be on WHERE the hand enters the water, but HOW it enters. The hand should pierce the water, and the rest of the forearm should follow it into the water through the same hole, with as little stirring of the water as possible. The goal of fishlike swimming is for your stroking arm to grip the water almost as though it were a solid while your body and recovering arm slip through the water with as little resistance and turbulence as possible. Bob

Originally posted by ShariL ... My question is: Are you saying Klim has a straight arm recovery like Janet Evans? I can't picture his stroke at the moment. ... Klim has the most straight arm recovery I have seen in 2000. I don't think that Klim has changed his style, since. So, Klim a sprinter, and Janet Evans a distance freestyler, they both swam with straight arms. When Klim's arm finishes the pull, it exits the water, travels in the air extended to the maximum (zero bending of the arm in the air), the arm travels very closely above the water surface, then Klim elongates himself by throwing the shoulder forward and rolling sideways the hip that is on the side of his arm, and finally the stretched arm at the end of his elongated 6'3" body enters the water to start the catch and pull. Klim swims completely rotary style with straight arms, similar to the motion of a windmill propelled from behind by an explosion of firm kicking. Klim and Popov used to train with the same rotary style, at A.I.S. in Australia, under the Russian coach Touretski. Now Popov alone trains under that coach, in Switzerland. Straight arms in rotary style, that's also what I have seen in a 2002 video of Inge de Bruijn (Ned.), when coached by Paul Bergen (U.S.). de Bruijn, is now back to Netherlands, and I don't know how she is swimming these days. I have seen very often, arms entering the water in a bent shape, V-like, as this was the most prevalent style (ahead of the rotary straight arm style) in the 90s, including how Matt Biondi was swimming. However, whether is rotary straight arm or the more common V-shape arm position, in no case there is "...putting their hand in right by their head...".

1) Ion - you said: Very dramatic rotary, kayak style, swimmers who "...are not putting their hand in right by their head..." because they swim with straight -not bent- and fully stretched arms above the water, are Michael Klim (Aus.) -who is second fastest man in history in 100 meter free at 48.18- and Inge de Bruijn (Ned.) -who is the fastest woman in history in 100 meter free at 53.77-. My question is: Are you saying Klim has a straight arm recovery like Janet Evans? I can't picture his stroke at the moment. 2) Is there a corelation between TI Advocates and TI Adversaries and competitive swimming background? It seems TI works very well for the Triathletes and newer swimmers. How about current and/or former competitive swimmers? Do the TI coaches usually have a competitive swimming background? 3) Matt S. - thanks for the long response. I have to admit though, that it was a bit confusing. To clarify, the Triathlete in my class has a hand entry just in front of the head (I never said by his ear)- he is not reaching far out front to maximize the length of his stroke. Why are people coming out of TI with this confusion on one of the most basic parts of the stroke ("reach forward, catch, pull thru")? Sorry I have to ask the tough questions. This is a great discussion! :cool:

'Australian crawler' Michael Klim (Aus.), has the world record in 100 meter butterfly at 51.81. In spot #4 all-time for the 100 meter butterfly -after Klim, Thomas Ruprath (Ger.) and Michael Phelps (U.S.)-, there is Geoff Huegill (Aus.) with a personal best of 51.96. Huegill is another beast of the 'Australian crawl', when swimming freestyle.

Terry, thanks for the lengthy response. I am having trouble picturing this swimming form and my image is one of an inefficient swimmer. Perhaps what you're saying makes sense for a new swimmer with balance problems. But is it really t he most efficient way to swim freestyle? YOu said: 1) keep the hand as close to the surface as possible on recovery DO YOU MEAN WITH HIGH ELBOWS? 2) have the hand out of the water as briefly as possible on recovery (i.e. re-enter close to the head) SO YOU RECOMMEND SHORTENING THE STROKE? 3) angle the hand downward from entry to it was below the head at full extension (also fingertips-below-wrist and hand-below-elbow) I CAN"T PICTURE THIS...IS THE SWIMMER REACHING FORWARD, OR JUST DOWNWARD? I guess my trouble with this is that although this approach may help teach non-swimmers to swim, it is not really proper competitive swimming technique (my opinion based on information in this post...argue away folks!). I do think that some world class swimmers may incorporate some TI techniques, whether they learned it thru TI or not (and in most cases I suspect they were trained this way w/out TI). But when we are talking about things that sound so basically wrong (like entering by the head)...that's when people question the approach. I think it's hard for an already inefficient swimmer to do a lot of experimentation, since a new swimmer will often get confused by different feedback. This guy, for instance, is confused by all the drills he did at TI and can't put them into their proper place and figure out how to SWIM. Honestly, I think a new swimmer needs very consistent feedback about how to improve his/her stroke, focusing on one thing at a time (ie, the post yesterday about the new swimmer who needs to get his hips up). Please don't take this as anti-TI. As a matter of fact, my own freestyle fell apart after my competitive swimming career (almost 20yrs ago now) and I bet I could benefit from it. I still plan to view the video. It's the confusion that bothers me...and I can't quite put my finger on the other issue...but why are the TIers (mostly triathletes and newers swimmers) learning different technique than established competitive swimming principles...unless we are admitting here that TI is not for the world class swimmer (and it doesn't sound like the TI advocates agree with this), but more for those learning as an adult with serious stroke flaws (TI advocates, is this the more appropriate audience for TI?).