TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...

Pssst, Shari: let's beat here, the people over there from 'Paddles, gloves, etc..', in number of replies. They are at 22 replies right now.

Terry, Very interesting feedback. As Ion suggested, sooner or later someone would post a reply who knows plenty about TI, but who would've thought that the master himself would join in! Thank you for the input. I like the way you suggested that the feel of the stroke is very personal and more important than having someone mirror a particular technique. My own experimentation with TI has lead me to feel more comfortable with less of a front quadrant stroke and more of a rotary style. (I still like to argue that sprinters swim with hands in opposition rather than in overlap.) My own preference anyway. But I am a huge believer in distance per stroke, and manage anywhere between eleven or twelve on a 25 yd. length. I hesitated to reply any further being that this topic is the proverbial Pandora's box in the discussion forums. But thank you for the info. And perhaps Shari will have quite an interesting talk with her swimmer in training. :cool:

At the risk of being branded a heretic, I agree with Shari. I've never seen a world class swimmer with the stroke described in Mr. Laughlin's post. Perhaps I'm missing something. Or perhaps TI is better suited for instructing novice/noncompetitive swimmers as Shari suggests. I do know that this is not the freestyle described in other sources (Colwin, Maglischo, Hannula). Anyway, I suspect that one "size" (or stroke) doesn't fit all.

In case anyone is interested, here's a quick link showing a fairly good view of Popov going all out on a 50 meter swim. www.per4m.ca/.../Swim Videos.htm Click on (Klim & Popov 1). It's pretty evident that the arms are in the rotary stroke cycle during this race. And the speed is further enhanced by one heck of a kick.

Breakthrough Swimming by Cecil Colwin was published in 2002. Diagrams of freestyle are shown on page 51. The hands enter the water beyond the head; the style is front quadrant in that both arms occupy the front quadrant at the same time, keeping in mind however that the front quadrant includes the space above and below the surface of the water. This is not the same as a catch up style. The straight arm recovery can cause shoulder problems from impingement. Different strokes for different folks?

I have been away for the weekend and come back to 27 emails for this topic. For the record I do not want to be known as a critic of TI. I have been a TI swimmer for the last 5 years, the purposeful swimming and their drill progressions are the foundation of both my swimming and my coaching. As i have said in other posts all of my swimmers do the TI drills and they work wonders for novice swimmers. I do think that mastering balance in the water is essential. TI swimming instruction is certainly much better than the long kickbord sets and pull sets so common elsewhere. Terry Laughlin answered 1 of my points. I have noticed that some swimmers who have experience of TI have a hand entry which goes into the water and then scoops up to the surface before the catch. I am pleased that TI coaches have picked up on this. My other point was on stroke timing, Terry does say in his latest book that that Front Quadrant Swimming was the most negotiable of the features of TI. I guess it comes down to how long is the glide and does the supposed reduction in drag from holding that position outweigh the slow-down from the gap in the propulsive phases that results. I would like more info, maybe some one should do a comparitive study of the 2 techniques side by side. I know from my own swimming that if you hold the glide too long then you definitely do lose velocity. I do augment the TI drills with many others. Ti at present is missing drills that work on developing aspects of the Breaststroke kick, backstroke pull and some parts of fly and free strokes. I do like their drill progressions for fly and *** tho. I also feel that while long stroke length is important, so is maintaining a high Stroke rate. I would like to see Total Immersion give more emphasis on how to swim fast and win those races. If TI practitioners started to be the race winners then attitudes would soon change. With my swimming, I have developed a very quiet, smooth, long stroke, 11 to 15 for 25 yards ( no bubbles on my stroke! ). However my stroke rate is very low, 21 cycles/min on distance swims and 25 cycles/min on 50 metre sprints. I am working to raise that now as I want to win my races. Being the most elegant swimmer, with the slowest turnover, as my wife describes me is not good enough. BTW, according to Magaschilo in "Swimming Fastest" the straight arm recovery in free should only be used by Fly swimmers as they have the skill to control the lateral deviation that can result. Also 'Australian Crawl' is not a straight arm recovery, it is more a forward shift of the shoulder and a high degree of medial rotation in the initial catch phase.

Originally posted by ShariL 2) have the hand out of the water as briefly as possible on recovery (i.e. re-enter close to the head) SO YOU RECOMMEND SHORTENING THE STROKE? You keep comming back to this. By stroke length, I'm guessing you mean from the "catch" all the way through to where the hand exits the water. If so, it doesn't matter (for stroke length) where the hand enters the water, especially if you are continuing to glide the hand forward after entry. As far as rotary vs front-quadrant, I was just looking at some of the drawings in Colwin's book (pg 43, Swimming Dynamics). If you are watching the conventional TV coverage of swim races, how can you tell what these high caliber swimmers are doing? The drawings are *clearly* front-quadrant. However, at the only moment where you can see both arms (as the hand leaves the water), the arms are opposite ("rotary"). The only way to tell what the swimmer is doing, during the entire stroke, is to get a simultaneous above and below water view of their arm action.

Originally posted by Gareth Eckley ... Also 'Australian Crawl' is not a straight arm recovery, it is more a forward shift of the shoulder and a high degree of medial rotation in the initial catch phase. Again, Touretski in Swimnews from May 1998, under 'Preparation For Sprint Events', writes about Klim: "The particularities of Michael's technique (Australian crawl straight arm recovery and late body pitch) move his centre of mass forward..." Dawn Fraser (Aus.), won the 100 free in 59.5 in the 1964 Olympics with the 'Australian' straight arm.

Originally posted by mattson ... If so, it doesn't matter (for stroke length) where the hand enters the water, especially if you are continuing to glide the hand forward after entry. ... What is debatable here, is whether stretching the arm underwater does introduce an unnecessary resistence from the water opposing the arm. Terry says it is a negligible resistence compared to the whole body. I was told by a coach last year before the 2002 Long Course Nationals, to shorten my stroke above the water, to enter the hand angled downwards (not forward) into the water, then to extend my arm fully underwater before starting the catch and pull. I got back to my ways since. I feel better and swim faster meets in 2003 than in 2002. In Swimming Technique of April/June 2003, in page 16, Cecil Colwin states: "The swimmer's timing and balance in the water are very personal aspects,...,and any attempted correction may upset a swimmer's natural rhythm.". Originally posted by mattson ... As far as rotary vs front-quadrant, I was just looking at some of the drawings in Colwin's book (pg 43, Swimming Dynamics). ... The drawings are *clearly* front-quadrant. However, at the only moment where you can see both arms (as the hand leaves the water), the arms are opposite ("rotary"). ... The book Swimming Dynamics by Cecil Colwin dates from 1999. In page 43, the drawing on the top of the page (fig. 1), shows a spacing between the two arms of less than 90 degreees. The arms overlap there, T.I. style. The 'Australian crawl' of rotary, straight arms, is not mainstream. In 2003, four years after 1999, In Swimming Technique of April/June 2003, in page 16, Cecil Colwin -who is a student of the sport-, has 'Overlapping and Rotary Strokes', with drawings in fig. 5A. of the overlapping stroke, and in fig. 5B. of the rotary stroke that show contrasts. In rotary stroke, the arms are spaced by at least 90 degrees, and by as much as 180 degrees apart. Originally posted by mattson ... If you are watching the conventional TV coverage of swim races, how can you tell what these high caliber swimmers are doing? ... My knowledge of who swims what, comes from watching videos (like Inge de Bruijn's), TV races, seeing some competitors in real life (like Chris Fydler (Aus.), who I mentioned above), and mainly reading articles. Swimnews magazine from May 1998, under 'Preparation For Sprint Events: You Cannot Dive Twice Into The Same Water', has Gennadi Touretski, coach of Klim and Popov at that time (and now coach of Popov), stating: "Immediately after the 1996 Olympic Games, Michael' Klim's technique was modified to incorporate the old-fashioned straight-arm recovery. The longer recovery seems to lenghten the stroke." In the 2000 Olympics, when Klim got the world record in 100 meter free as a lead off of the 4x100 free relay, and later on #4 in the 100 meter free finals (close behind #1 Hoogenband (Ned.), #2 Popov (Rus.) -a rotary free, himself-, and #3 Hall (U.S.)), he used a loud and clear rotary straight-arm crawl.

Shari, et. al., I just want to point out one aspect of what Terry said about having the hand enter the water early and/or next to the head. Recall he prefaced this tip by saying it was for swimmers who are having trouble with balance. THIS TIP IS NOT GENERAL ADVICE APPROPRIATE FOR ALL SWIMMERS! It is a specific stroke correction for people who have a specific problem, i.e. sinking hips. To get the big picture, go back to core principals: reduce drag, swim with core body muscles, learn to swim by feel. Matt