TI Question...heard this and doesn't sound right...
Former Member
I am teaching a stroke clinic class at the YMCA. My background is USS competitive swimming (ages 8-18) and some age-group coaching. One of my students, a triathlon trainer, has been to Total Immersion. Because of his TI training, he is doubtful of any stroke correction I am giving him. Basically he has the typical problems of a short stroke...entering too close to the head and not pulling thru.
The TI triathlete is telling me that the TI "Fish" style swimming technique says the hand should enter the water just in front of the head, then reach forward. In my opinion, he needs to lengthen his stroke, rotating and reaching as far forward as possible, entering out front (not by the head). I am thinking he is mixing up some TI drill with proper freestyle SWIMMING technique. He at least agreed with me when we talked distance per stroke (and started believing I know something about swimming)...but I don't see how you can maximize DPS with hand entry by the head.
Can someone shed light on this for me? What is this "Fish" swimming in a couple sentences? And where does TI say the hand entry should be?
Thank you!!
P.S. I'm new here and enjoying reading...I swim masters and hope to compete in butterfly someday...I'm waiting it out until I get a bit older so can face the competition. My butterfly has held out better than my other strokes (used to be a long distance freestyler too).
P.P.S. I did a search on TI and read some of the posts but they didn't quite get to my specific question above.
Former Member
I think that if you put a comma in the Touretski quote between Australian crawl and straight arm recovery then you will correctly get what he was saying. As I understand it the main feature of " Australian crawl" is the pronounced shoulder shift forward during entry. The shoulder is held high and the catch is acheived by taking the time to get the hand and forearm at 90 degrees to the water surface, before initiating the pull. The pull is actually quite shallow. The upper arm remains high and almost parallell to the water surface during this.
This differs to " normal " freestyle where the shoulder is dropped during the entry phase and the shoulders roll more, leading to the pull being deeper in the water.
This is covered in Swimming technique magazine , july-sept article. " Thoughts on the crawl stroke" www.swiminfo.com/.../200007-01st_art.asp There is also an article in Swimming World magazine, January 2000, titled "the New Australian Crawl" that covers this in depth. the last article has a good photo sequence but is not available online.
The straight arm recovery is not an intrinsic or neccessary part of this swimming style, Thorpe and Hackett do not use it and they are certainly swimming "Australian Crawl". I think straight arm recovery can work well for some swimmers mainly very good flyers, like Klim and Inky, and then only in short sprints. However I don't think that i will be teaching it to my non elite swimmers as the classic relaxed bent arm recovery uses less muscle force and is proven to be very effecient.
However it will be interesting to see how they are swimming freestyle at the World Championship this week. I love how swimming is always changing.
For what it's worth: I recall a couple of swimming books I have recommending a freestyle hand entry point 12-14" in front of the head and in line with the shoulder.
Originally posted by Gareth Eckley
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I think straight arm recovery can work well for some swimmers mainly very good flyers, like Klim and Inky, and then only in short sprints.
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Janet Evans, a distance swimmer, was doing straight arm recovery.
In Masters swimming, Barbara Dunbar, a distance swimmer in my club, doing at age 53 sub 20 minutes for 1500 meters, is swimming rotary straight arm.
Regarding the 'Australian crawl', I need to study the topic better, including your points.
Just to muddy the waters a bit more,Cecil Colwin doesn't say anything about bi-lateral breathing in his book,"Breakthrough Swimming",which surprised me.
Gareth, I think that I ammend my post below:
Originally posted by Ion Beza
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Maybe the article in the Swimming World magazine from January 2000, is the same article that I am reading right now from the Swim magazine of March/April 2000.
The article from the Swim magazine has eight pictures under the title 'Fairly Good Sequence Illustrating the "New Australian Crawl"'.
It says:
"The following photos, using former short course world champion Francisco Sanchez of Venezuela, are a fairly good approximation of the Australian stroke."
Captions under the eight pictures do emphasize what you are describing.
Picture number four (picture on the right, in the second row), does show a straight right arm, fully extended closely above the water, before entering the water to catch and pull.
However, the caption under this picture doesn't mention the straight arm, so what Swim magazine and you describe in 'Australian Crawl', that is the definition of the 'Australian Crawl'.
by getting back to my initial knowledge:
'Australian Crawl' is swimming with straight arms.
Swim magazine from March/April 2000, has 'Fairly Good Sequence Illustrating the "New Australian Crawl"', like I mentioned, and eight pictures of Francisco Sanchez (Ven.) demonstrating the 'Australian Crawl' with captions that I studied more.
Figure one (left, top row) and figure four (right, second row), show pictures of Sanchez swimming with straight arms.
The caption under figure four, says:
"Vision is downward, and the head is carried low in the water with full reach forward with the recovering arm."
"...full reach forward with the recovering arm..." under picture 4, that's the straight arms I am talking about.
So, the 'New Australian Crawl' is shoulder shift forward with the lead arm, "...the catch in the stroke is begun with shoulder and upper arm remaining high, and the forearm and hands almost perpendicular to the surface of the water...", and is straight arm reaching forward.
Like I saw Klim in videos.
Klim is Australian and swims the crawl with a straight arm recovery; I don't think that means a straight arm recovery is characteristic of the Australian crawl. You could say it is characteristic of an Australian's crawl (by the name of Michael Klim). Reaching forward at entry (as a properly balanced swimmer would do) does not imply a straight arm recovery.
Maybe I'm a victim of mis-interpretation.......
This morning, just for giggles, I experimented with a freestyle hand entry very close in to the top of my head. This is what I learned:
1. I could not get the reach I'm used to.
2. I could feel my biceps encountering resistance as they came forward at entry.
3. There was a significant slowing of forward progress - I could easily feel that.
4. Instead of 12 strokes in a 25m pool, it jumped to 14.
Where am I going wrong ????? Or am I ?????
Now, don't get all defensive....I'm trying to keep an open mind.
Bert
Well now, the devil really IS in the details, isn't it ?
The way you described is the way I normally swim....see? I got it wrong !
I misinterpreted and was trying to insert my hand very close to and directly at the top of my head. Ergo......no workee !
My way of describing the entry (don't you love how the language causes misunderstandings ?) that I use, would be to say that I extend fully over water. But that isn't accurate, because after my hand makes contact with the water, I'm still extending forward and downward.
I don't know if I would qualify as an "elite" swimmer, since I mainly compete as a flyer. I have been coaching for 40 years, off and on.(mostly off, when I wanted to earn money !)
My front quadrant style of skating/swimming/gliding lends itself more to distance rather than sprinting, but my love of sprint fly precludes distance training. (Translation: won't put in the yardage.)
Bert
The "where should your hand enter the water" discussion just keeps going on, and on, and on...
Just to ensure I grok the fullness of Terry's response, let me rephrase in my own words what I think I am hearing:
1) Reducing drag is important. Enter your hand wherever you can create as little splash and bubbles as possible. Extend your arm through the same area your hand entered. Pause with your bottom arm in the extended position before initiating the pull and roll so you get the hydrodynamic benefit of front quadrant swimming.
2) The purpose of practicing and the purpose of racing are not necessarily the same thing. You may over-emphasize certain aspects of your stroke when you practice. You may not chose to race this way because it is suboptimal, but practicing this way will help you maintain a similar but less-pronounced, optimal characteristic in your stroke when you are tiring in the middle of a race.
What I find amusing is that some folks constantly want to focus on what the hands are doing, when they are at the extreme periphery of the body. My understanding of TI is that the core body and what you do with it is far more important than hands and feet. Yes, they contribute, but they are a secondary concern, and what they are doing should not detract from using the core body correctly. The eureka moment for me with the butterfly was when I tried a 25 fly with fistgloves ("for laughs" as I foolishly thought). When I noticed that in many respects it was EASIER than swimming fly with normal hands, the light finally went on about how important body udulation is to that stroke. A little voice in my head said, "IDIOT! The key to distance fly to PULL LESS, not more, and let your body do the work."
Matt
Originally posted by gull80
Klim is Australian and swims the crawl with a straight arm recovery; I don't think that means a straight arm recovery is characteristic of the Australian crawl.
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Swim magazine from March/April 2000 doesn't mention Klim.
I mention Klim, based on videos I have seen of his swimming.
Again, Swim magazine from March/April 2000, under 'Fairly Good Sequence Illustrating the "New Australian Crawl"', teaches the characteristics of the 'New Australian Crawl' in general.
Like I wrote, pictures 1 and 4 show straigt arms characteristics in the 'New Australian Crawl'.
Picture 1 shows the left arm, straight when traveling in the air.
Picture 4 shows the right arm, straight when hitting the water, with fingers pointing forward (not downward).
Like I wrote, the caption under the picture 4 says:
"Vision is downward, and the head is carried low in the water with full reach forward with the recovering arm."
So you have it here:
a straight arm characteristic in the 'Australian Crawl', as in "...full reach forward with the recovering arm.".
