Post-Grads in U.S. Masters Swimming Events

It is going to be rare for a beginner to be in the same heat as a "professional ". That Olympian should not have entered NT. I expect that almost never happens (I hope ).

Jason, I really hope that Swimming World doesn't diminish itself and its focus on competition by addressing this question. All are welcome and MORE are welcome. Come one, come all and race! If there is a problem within USMS that needs to be addressed relative to competition, it's not one of having "too much" competition at the meets. I think it's the opposite - why don't we have a larger percentage of the USMS membership competing? When I compare the turnout at my wife's local running events versus our local Masters meets, it's an order of magnitude difference. When I talk to many USMS coaches, many of whom try to encourage their members to compete, many of them complain about a lack of desire by their members to compete. I think the question to address is why so many Masters swimmers do not compete? +1 People have no problem running a 5k simultaneously with people who literally run it in half their time. Is it the blocks, getting up there with no more than nine other people, with no crowd to hide in? I don't get it. No matter how badly I get beat - and I've been beaten pretty badly, by world record holders, two Olympians in the same heat once, NCAA champions, women, men - all I ever get is positivity afterward.

The word 'Masters' in USMS means 18 years or older. Furthermore, I'm not aware of any limitations in USMS rules regarding athletes who are professional or collegiate/post collegiate. Given my understanding of what USMS is, Olympians, professional swimmers, national team members, collegiate and post collegiate athletes should have no restrictions placed upon which meets they compete at or which records or top ten lists they are eligible to contend for. I would tend to agree with Kirk that a Masters record should be set at a Masters meet.

Chris, what is the current rule regarding masters WORLD records? For some reason, I thought there was a very significant difference - that USMS NATIONAL records could be set while as a USA swimmer, but not FINA masters world records - am I wrong on this? Please enlighten us so that we are responding based on the current rules in place for FINA and USMS. That's certainly right in terms of FINA. Don't know about USMS, but Masters Swimming Australia recognizes records set by MSA-registered swimmers racing in non-Masters meets. Eg the Australian record for the W40-44 100 breaststroke SCM is almost 2 seconds faster than the FINA Masters record for the age group (1:10.55 FINA vs 1:08.88 Australian). The Australian record was swum by Linley Frame at Swimming Australia Open SC Championships. She races Open more often than she races Masters meets, and her best times have been there. www.portal.aussi.org.au/.../records.php

The rules are actually a little hazy on the point of whether swims at non-masters intenational meets count for USMS purposes. I agree they should be clarified. My purpose in asking the question was to get a sense of the feeling of the people here...because there has been a request for the Executive Committee to recognize just such a non-masters international meet (this is allowed under the rules). Not sure if I did this reply correctly; for reference it is to Chris's post #28 I marvel at how much work USMS volunteers put into these rules. So thank you, from one that does nothing but pay my meet entry and swim, then troll the event rankings for who's where. I would entirely back up a final rule that says something to the effect that "granting records is at the discretion of management." It just seems so very difficult to encompass every conceivable scenario. On another note, I am curious to hear whether people think USMS times should count for USAS. Selfishly speaking, I would love meet directors to go to the extra effort of getting the meets recognized/observed, or whatever the term is for dual registered people to be able to have their times automatically entered in SWIMS. And I fully realize this question is in the category of "Forum poster with idea for someone else to do the work".

...I swim USAS pretty frequently and have had several swims where the pool is not on USMS record for measurement and the times don't qualify for top 10. I find this a little silly since the pool is sanctioned by usas and the pools measurements are on record with them. At the end of the day it's more annoying than anything else and really not a big deal but thought I would share. Stewart, in regards to the bolded above, that is not always the case. USA-S only requires pool measurements if there is a American/US Open/World record set at a meet (case in point- Michael Phelps' home pool was not measured until there was a USMS meet in it, and it turns out the pool is actually short). Not all of the pools you're doing USA-S in have been measured. If pool measurements are, however, on file for a given pool that you've done a USA-S meet in, if you work with your Top Ten Recorder, those times may count for USMS Top Ten. You can also measure the pool yourself, fill out the proper USMS form, and submit it to your TTR. Then that pool would be on file for any other USMS swimmer who does meets in that same pool. And for you, for any subsequent meets you swim there.

I've seen this argument a lot on the motorcycle racing forums that I'm on in regards to pro level riders showing up to club (amature) events. On one hand, I understand everyone out there wants to win, so seeing top level guys come in and mop the floor with the field could be seen a deterrent to some. But in the bigger picture, you don't get faster beating up on competitors slower than you. Faster competitors push you to become faster.

On another note, I am curious to hear whether people think USMS times should count for USAS. Selfishly speaking, I would love meet directors to go to the extra effort of getting the meets recognized/observed, or whatever the term is for dual registered people to be able to have their times automatically entered in SWIMS. And I fully realize this question is in the category of "Forum poster with idea for someone else to do the work". It is possible to do this. For example, at USMS nationals it is almost trivially easy: there is a sign-up sheet for swimmers to have their times submitted to SWIMS. I think you have to do this before the swim. It is much less common at other meets, but I know my wife and I set this up (initially at the request of a swimmer but then advertised more widely) at a meet we co-directed. The reason there are hoops to jump through is that USA-S and USMS rules are not quite the same, and the (USA-S certified) S&T judge needs to observe that your swim is valid under USA-S rules. Also -- at our meet anyway -- the meet referee had to be the one to submit the time to SWIMS since we didn't have the ability to do that. In terms of having the whole meet recognized for USA-S purposes, it sounds like you are talking about a dual-sanctioned meet, which is also a real thing. I don't have any direct experience, but I think these are usually primarily USA-S meets where a handful of masters swimmers enter, often with the purposes of having the times count for FINA (since they don't accept times from USA-S meets).

I would assume the coach just believes people have their reasons. I think it's great for coaches to encourage swimmers to compete, but on the other hand, they probably don't want to discourage those who aren't interested in competing. There was a coach in Pittsburgh that said that she wasn't interested in coaching anyone who wanted to compete which she made abundantly clear when I asked numerous times for feedback. Her "team" was for fitness swimmers. (That club has a new coach, and he is a breath of fresh air). I think there should be a happy medium. Do not pressure folks to compete, but gently nudge the nervous fitness swimmer into trying out a local meet.

Hi all, We're looking to get some input from Masters swimmers and coaches on the age old question whether someone who is a professional or post-grad swimmer belongs in U.S. Masters Swimming events going after Masters records. Curious to get your thoughts! We may ask you to be in a future issue of Swimming World. Jason Marsteller Swimming World yes please because as a newer swimmer(5 years now) I love watching those swimmers...just for the love of the sport