Swimming against your competion

I decidedly prefer to swim against my competition at nationals and, as she notes, it is the only meet of the year at which this happens. As for Jeff's point about the 400/800/1500 swimmers, I would be curious how they feel. The age group time spreads in those events is likely much greater than in the sprints, pacing is much more important, and waves from surrounding swimmers less of an issue (in fact, there may be drafting). So perhaps in those circumstances it is more desirable to swim against those with comparable times? I can see either side. But those events take so disproportionately much longer than the sprints, I'm sure there's no choice but to mix age groups. At Greensboro nationals there was a poll question on this topic for the 400 IM and 500 free, which were seeded by time within each age-group (as opposed to solely by time). The clear majority of responders preferred to swim against people in their own age group. I would argue that it is least important for sprinters to be seeded within the age group, they shouldn't be taking precious time in a race gawking at other people! But the time savings are minimal for 50s and 100s, as you imply. I'm sure that nationals meet hosts are aware that most swimmers prefer to swim against their own age group, but they also have to balance that concern against having long days. I think Jeff's point is that meet hosts very often ask distance people to sacrifice this "perk" of nationals, usually without much hue and cry. Now -- in an very large 5-day meet -- the meet host is asking it of people in the 200s as well (as well as going to the trouble of positive check-in, something else that distance people have had to do in most meets) as one of several efforts to trim the timeline.

well some folks think its dumb that Schoeman is not swimming in the same heat as the 2nd and 3rd fastest swimmers in the meet. where is the excitement in that? thats like watching prelims. I doubt many if any people come to Nats to watch the elite swimmers.People who come as spectators come to watch their friends and family.Sure everyone stops to watch the elite young swimmers when they swim,but I don't think the meet should be built around viewing pleasure.

In 2005 I was at the Worlds Masters Games.It was seeded by time.A friend of mine,Dave Radcliff,swam several world records swimming against much younger swimmers,but as far as the announcer was concerned he was just some gut in lane 7(as an example.) When I go to Nats I want to swim against Bob Strand,Jim Clemmons,Robert Wright,Hubie Kerns,Richard Walker,etc.I don't want to swim against some 30 year old guy who happens to have a seed time close to me.If I have one of the fastest times in my age group I want a center lane.I admit in my age group there is the "Rick Colella problem",that he is so much faster than everyone else it may not be a race for him and he might like to swim with faster swimmers.I don't know,I haven't asked him.I just know for me,I'd rather swim by age groups at Nats.I can go to plenty of meets seeded by time,Nats is special.

In 2005 I was at the Worlds Masters Games.It was seeded by time.A friend of mine,Dave Radcliff,swam several world records swimming against much younger swimmers,but as far as the announcer was concerned he was just some gut in lane 7(as an example.)So do you think Dave swam slower because the announcer didn’t recognize his accomplishment? Maybe he went faster because the young guy in lane 6 was pushing him. I get that some folks prefer to swim in heats with people of their gender and age group while others prefer to be swimming in a heat with people of comparable times. I also get that some folks are pretty well entrenched in their preferences.

So do you think Dave swam slower because the announcer didn’t recognize his accomplishment? I think Allen was merely saying that the accomplishment went unnoticed. Like Allen, I have plenty of fast people in my own age group to race. It's more meaningful to be racing them head to head than some 20+ year old at nationals. And I'm not buying Patrick's assertion that lanes 1 and 8 are underrated. Maybe they're not a huge negative at nationals in pools comparable to Omaha in terms of waves, but you still can't see the other swimmers well. I'm never happy to be in wall lanes (especially if it's in a mixed gender meet). And I literally just saw a swimmer complaining on FB that she and her age group competition were in lanes 1 and 8 for a distance event.

I think Allen was merely saying that the accomplishment went unnoticed.. Yes.This announcer was very excited,but he would talk about the great swim by the swimmer who won,even though that person may have finished much further down in the age group.

I believe at nationals they seed according to USMS 102.10.1.C “”It is recommended that when swimmers are seeded by time and not by age groups, the fastest two swimmers in each age group should not be seeded into outside lanes. It is recommended that they be moved inward one lane or given the center lanes in the next slowest heat, whichever is the more appropriate placement.” And if seeded by time, it is just as likely that the elder swimmer will be the swallower as the swallowee. This never happens outside nationals. And I'm not sure it happens at nationals either. I'd have to check the heat sheets. Not just as likely. Sure, there are stud swimmers in the older age groups. But on the whole, the talented older swimmers will not beat talented younger swimmers and, if seeded by time, they will end up in the outside lanes. Where is Jeff Commings? Isn't he going to come along to defend the seeding by time camp? :)

In 2005 I was at the Worlds Masters Games.It was seeded by time.A friend of mine,Dave Radcliff,swam several world records swimming against much younger swimmers,but as far as the announcer was concerned he was just some gut in lane 7(as an example.) When I go to Nats I want to swim against Bob Strand,Jim Clemmons,Robert Wright,Hubie Kerns,Richard Walker,etc.I don't want to swim against some 30 year old guy who happens to have a seed time close to me.If I have one of the fastest times in my age group I want a center lane.I admit in my age group there is the "Rick Colella problem",that he is so much faster than everyone else it may not be a race for him and he might like to swim with faster swimmers.I don't know,I haven't asked him.I just know for me,I'd rather swim by age groups at Nats.I can go to plenty of meets seeded by time,Nats is special. oddly enough rick's 200 swim in Omaha was one of the observations I was referring to when I said timed heats tend to diminish the accomplishment of a world record swim. I don't think he won his heat yet against the 60-64 group he would have won by about 15 seconds.

I personally even enjoy watching the heats before me and seeing those standout performances by those swimmers who kill the competition in their age group. For me it's really inspiring and one of the reasons why I love Nationals. Those swimmers' accomplishments will definitely go under the radar and it's unfortunate.despite my previous comments as a racer in the pool, as a swim fan, I agree with this. At the end of the day, I can go both ways on this issue and find the joy racing under either environment. Moreover, I am SO grateful for all the volunteers who go to great lengths to put on Nationals and the people on the organizing committee who have to make these tough calls. as for tomorrow, I am happy not to be seeded by age group so I won't have to cry in my goggles as I watch Kurt speed away from me in the 200!

For me, it doesn't really seem to matter -- I always end up swimming in a heat with Kurt Dickson (except for the one year when I age up before him) and very often right next to him. We joked last summer in Omaha that we could've stayed home in AZ for our 800 and 400 and had the same race without all the travel, expense, etc. On a serious note, my answer is that it depends -- what system is going to get me the best race? In Greensboro, for example, the 500 seeding within age group produced a simply awesome heat in the 45-49 age group and I loved the race. In the 400 IM, however, it would've been much better (selfishly) if it had been seeded by time. If I had to pick only one system to live with for the rest of my life, I'd choose seeding by time within gender; part of the reason I have enjoyed swimming USAS meets in the past has been for the opportunity to race people my own speed or slightly faster. After all, isn't age just a number?