Scapular swimming

ElaineK - Ah - the subtlety of our sport is what makes it interesting. Admittedly, the swimmer in the video is younger and still has some range of motion that we lose as we get older. We also have to acknowledge that the elite athlete has physical assets that slower swimmers do not. Having said that, look more closely at the body position while the arm comes over the top. The arm is, for the most part, on the frontal plane of the body. His body stays rotated until his arm has passed forward of the shoulder and then he rotates onto his stomach and to the other side. This is the relationship that most coaches and swimmers miss. For alot of reasons, most swimmers do not stay on their "pulling side" long enough which makes this kind of recovery possible. Two of the reasons are: their head is too high and/or they are trying to pull to the outside to get a "high elbow" catch. The latter reason results in early rotation onto the stomach which messes a good recovery. Full disclosure - I believe in keeping the pull side of your body lower than the recovery side until your hand passes your hip. Some people might call it late breathing. I just think it brings hip rotational power into play and connects the legs to the arms through the hips. This part is so hard - coaching through the internet. As I watch your 3-23-19 video, it is my opinion that you are rotating back towards your stomach too early in the pull. I would try to pull deeper (think about reaching to the bottom) and "stay" on your pulling side longer (until your pulling hand is past your hip). Try to imagine swimming from side-to-side and avoiding time on your stomach. If what you did today felt better, that is a good thing. As I get older, I think more about what feels good instead of what goes fast. Afterall, swimming every day means it has to be enjoyable and rewarding. Anything that gets in the way of those two things is counter-productive no matter how technically correct it might be. :) As hard as it is to coach on the internet, it is equally hard to interpret internet coaching and trying to simulate it in the pool. Good Luck and let me know how it goes. Paul Wonderful advice as usual :)

Thanks for your advice, Julia! You are the other coach I was hoping would join in on this conversation. I appreciate it! Although the cause of my left shoulder pain wasn't from swimming (It was from the repetitive stress of the volunteer work I did last spring in the Dominican Republic that caused bursitis and impingement in my left shoulder.), I would agree that the discomfort has persisted due to the stroke flaws you pointed out. I'm fine on days I don't swim a lot of freestyle; however, last weekend, I raced the 1000 on Saturday and 500 on Sunday, which worsened the discomfort. It was a wake-up call to switch back to Scapular Plane Swimming. Why did I make the switch away from my 2013 stroke? It was advice I was getting from several different coaches on how to "improve" my stroke. Between a World Record-holder who lives in my town, to a couple of coaches who are in Georgia Masters who I see at meets, and others; I was encouraged to go with the high elbow on both the pull and recovery as well as to finish my stroke at mid-thigh. All of them were stressing DPS, finger tip drag, and zip drill. Now, after returning to this thread and re-reading it completely (in addition to reading everything else I could find on the subject), I see that for me and the health of my shoulders, I need to do the following: 1. Avoid those drills and go with a low-swinging arm recovery that keeps my arm level with my shoulder and back. 2. Keep my more-comfortable deeper pull rather than trying to get my elbow higher. (This goes for breaststroke, too!) 3. Finish my pull on both freestyle and butterfly at the hip. 4. Work on improving a consistent kick. 5. Sacrifice speed for shoulder health! The biggest challenge I have in freestyle is landing my left arm in the right place. In the 2013 video, it lands outside of my shoulder. Otherwise, it has a tendency to overshoot the target and cross over. I also have a tendency for my left hand to slide out before the pull rather than stay straight; however, I'm not as worried about that, because I don't believe it is causing any pain. Regarding building core strength, that has been part of my dryland routine for years. I had back surgery in 1987, and I have always done ab-strengthening since then. I have also been doing yoga for two years and Theraband exercises for years; and, I returned to weight-lifting at the beginning of the year. I have also been doing planks and other miscellaneous exercises for my core most days of the week since I joined Masters in 2010. In all, I spend a good 45 minutes, six days per week on dryland-- aside from stretching. What I DO see I need to CHANGE is the way I am doing my drills. My one-arm drills in the past involved finger-tip and zipper drill. I'm thinking of more progression drills of kicking with my arms at my side and then rotating from side to side with my face in the water. Then, progress to one-arm where I breathe on the opposite side of the recovery arm, and then change to breathing on the recovery side, before progressing to full stroke for the final part of the drill. All of this needs to be changed with a LOW elbow, straighter arm recovery that is low to the water, where I keep my elbow in my peripheral vision when I breathe. Hopefully, I can learn to do this with a consistent kick and landing my left arm IN FRONT of my shoulder, rather than outside or crossing over. Does this all sound right, Julia and Paul? I know you differ on where the arm should finish on the pull (see below); however, Scapular Plane Swimming calls for ending the pull at the hip. I'll have to go with Julia and Kipp Dye from www.osmed.net on this once. Now, if I could get my freestyle as good as my breaststroke, I would be :bliss:! Thank you very much to both of you for your help! ElaineK - a) Make sure your thumb touches mid-way down your thigh an the end of each stroke. - finishing past your hips and flicking the left arm out of the water, almost across your back, rather than finishing just at the hips. This can also put pressure on the shoulder.

ElainK - I think you are on the right track and need to do your own critical thinking about what scapular mechanics involve. I am 100% in favor of as much arm movement being in the frontal plane of your body. The reason I believe in finishing with a straight arm and touching your thumb to your thigh is because it DOES make it easier to recover on the front side of your body than finishing your pull at your hip. Let me be more specific that your thumb should touch the outside front of your thigh and the pull should finish at that point followed by a hip rotation upward (in fact your whole recovery side including the shoulder) to clear the arm for recovery. I agree with Julia that your hand/arm should never come out of the water on the dorsal (back side) plane of your body. The other reason for finishing to your thigh is equally important. When you finish your pull at your hip and immediately begin your recovery, it means you won't have enough time to get your other arm into the optimal pulling position. This leads to the issues you have been dealing with: hand entry outside your shoulder, not a deep enough catch, etc.. Yes, your tempo might be higher, but I doubt your speed can be maintained for very long (contrary to the article by Kyle, etal). I find the shorter stroke also make it a challenge to engage a 6 beat kick if you should want to use it. Short strokes usually lead to 2 beat or 3 beat cross-over kicks which okay for longer races, but not good for shorter ones if time is important. The finish to the front of the thigh corrects all of that IF you: a) finish at your thigh, and b) rotate your hip upward (and shoulder) before starting the recovery. In my experience, many swimmers (especially older ones) don't rotate the hip (and shoulder) upward before starting the recovery - even one of the world record holders (in his 80s) I am coaching right now. My shoulders have been "bad" for 47 years - water polo injuries, separations, strains, etc.. No surgeries. All of my mechanics are based on what allows me to swim fast without pain. The hip and shoulder rotation is my key. When Mary Beth (my wife and training partner) has shoulder issues and tells me, the first thing I ask is if she is finishing and rotating before recovery. Almost 100% of the time, this reduces or eliminates the discomfort. As for finishing your fly pull at your hips, I tend to advocate that for us older and slower swimmers AS LONG AS the initial recovery motion is out-sweeping around the sides (like making snow angels. Finishing at your hips and starting the recovery by lifting your elbows is an injury waiting to happen. For those reading this and thinking "I don't have these shoulder issues" that is great. What works for each of us is unique which is why it is important to critically think about what you read and see if it works for you - or does not. :) Paul

Hi Elaine, sounds like a plan (and good on you for doing some great volunteer work!). Actually I don't think Windrath and I are in disagreement about the finish. You definitely want to make sure you get in a complete finish, but you don't want to exaggerate the finish by overextending, and putting undue pressure on your shoulder joints in the process. Good luck!

Thanks, Paul and Julia! I appreciate you both continuing to weigh in on this. I'm sure there are other Forumites in my shoes who are considering adopting this style of swimming. Regarding the finish, I will attempt to find a happy medium between finishing at the hip and exaggerating the finish! Thanks to both of you on this. I received a message from thewookiee who had posted previously on this thread. He said he had spoken with Kipp Dye about Scapular Plane Swimming technique, and Kipp explained that he should imagine swimming freestyle with a butterfly-like recovery. He said that Natalie Coughlin is one of the best examples. Here is today's attempt. One thing I notice is the messy hand entry. I'll work on cleaning that up!: www.youtube.com/watch

For those reading this and thinking "I don't have these shoulder issues" that is great. What works for each of us is unique which is why it is important to critically think about what you read and see if it works for you - or does not. :) Paul FWIW, I am CONSTANTLY tweaking my stroke (which is one of the reasons I posted the thread about an actual program, to learn a bit more). I enjoy reading these kinds of threads to read different approaches. And I've noticed that a lot of things boil down to semantics. Gary Hall talks about a high elbow pull, whereas others talk about an early vertical forearm. Compared to a deep pull, they are pretty much the same (though I'm sure there are details I'm missing). My right shoulder occasionally bothers me. Usually more after doing fly than free. It is interesting to read about this recovery approach. I have stopped using paddles for part of my pull sets, as while I noticed it helped me be sure I had my hand entering and pulling properly, I was twisting my hand to keep the paddle in place (only have the band around ht middle finger so the paddle moves when I mess up, giving me feedback) when finishing my stroke, which led me to swinging my arm wide in the recovery......which is essentially what this method does (appears to, anyway). I'll have to remember this technique next time my shoulder bothers me, too.

My right shoulder occasionally bothers me. Usually more after doing fly than free. I'll have to remember this technique next time my shoulder bothers me, too.' Two words about fly to remember: Michael Phelps. Every time you recover your arms in fly, imagine recovering your arms like Michael Phelps with a straight arm, low recovery. I also read in one of the USMS articles to pinch your shoulder blades together as you recover to take the stress off your shoulders. I am working on strengthening those muscles, so I can do that effectively throughout a 200 fly race. Why use this technique only when your shoulder bothers you? If you use this technique all of the time, there will be less of a chance of your shoulders bothering you in the future! I'm hoping this technique (and all of my dryland work) will prevent shoulder issues in the future! :agree:

I finally heard back from Kipp Dye regarding my question as to whether my revised freestyle resembled his definition of "Scapular Plane Swimming," and he confirmed that the video I sent him of my stroke, and he said, "...from what I see, you do understand the concept." I have been working on my stroke, and I had my husband shoot a side view of it today. Rather than my usual breathe right going down and left coming back, I swam 50 yards of each in this 100. I still have some flaws to work out (keeping my left arm straight out from my shoulder on entry before the pull, for starters...); however, this is what Scapular Plane Swimming looks like being swum by a 56-year old Masters swimmer. (For an example of Olympians swimming this style, check out, Natalie Coughlin on free, and Michael Phelps on fly for the best examples!) www.youtube.com/watch lzIvNSA1B&t=0s&index=54 One thing I can tell you for sure. Since I have lost the high-elbow recovery and rely more on my back muscles for the arm recovery, my shoulder has been feeling better. This is my version of Scapular Plane Butterfly at my very slow 200 fly pace. I obviously still have a lot of work to do to get a decent fly! :blush:: www.youtube.com/watch Since completely eliminating the elbow bend on recovery and relying on my back muscles to recover my arms (rather than my shoulders), it feels a lot better! Comments, (constructive!) criticism, advice always appreciated it! :agree:

Ha ha ha ha ha!!! So sorry for ever introducing this concept! Izzy here, long silent on this forum. I definitely do not do zipper drill or fingertip drag because that pinches my shoulders. Otherwise, I have been trying to make myself show up for four practices a week and avoid shoulder pain. I do not think about scapular plane swimming anymore. I am working hard on core strength (brutal, slow-motion bridges with glutes engaged; I hate them!) (brutal, abs held, glutes-squeezed-for-dear-life planks; I hate them!) (SWIMMER magazine so amused me with its recent pictures of the guy able to hold a plank with one arm while practicing shoulder rows with the other; I would fall onto ground). For shoulders I do theraband rows, external rotation, shoulder-height straight-arm pulls, slow in, slow out. I try to focus REALLY HARD during practice on what feels good anatomically (a fancy way of saying I try to avoid all shoulder pain when swimming). My bane is kind of curling into a "C" shape when breathing to the right, such that I am pulling out with left arm to left as my head and body are kind of curling into a C toward the right as my head turns for air. Screw scapular shoulder swimming, this is obviously torque to the nth. So I am focusing really hard on body balance. I can tell I have better balance on one side than the other. There was one video 8 years ago on this thread that showed very beautiful freestyle where the guy never lifted his arm behind his back (i.e., outside of that there scapular plane). I think with good rotation and good body balance it is possible to swim well with the revered EVF :bow:and still keep arms parallel to back at all times through stroke cycle. I say this flippantly but I still think there is some truth to this idea of keeping the stroke within your body's plane.:worms: Now, when will we get leaves on the trees here in Boston? Shazam!!!!!!:bitching:

Welcome back to the Forums, Isobel! :welcome: I'm glad you introduced this topic, because it saved my shoulders! I, too, have permanently disposed of zipper and fingertip drag drills for the same reason. A former Masters World Record freestyler who lives in my town no longer competes due to shoulder problems, and he was a HUGE proponent of both of those drills. He did them all of the time (and probably wondered why he had shoulder pain). The old school style of freestyle may be great for kids and Olympians; however, we can't expect longevity in the sport if we are still swimming that way as AARP card-carrying Masters swimmers. These days, I don't care how slow I swim freestyle as I learn my new stroke technique. It's either Scapular Plane Swimming or :bolt:.