Just went to a PT who advocates swimming within the scapular plane. Doing all strengthening exercises within the scapular plane (never doing I, T's, or Ys above shoulder level, which I have, alas, been doing). No need, in his opinion, to do internal rotation with therabands; external rotation just 3/4 from front to 45 degrees past waist). No need for overhead rotation exercises; just stresses the shoulder joints.
What does scapular swimming mean? He demonstrated. No high elbows. No EVF.
Use rotation; use lats; use core. Let your arms swim wide and pretty straight during the recovery, but relaxed, with the momentum of your rotation. Don't bend your arms as you pull through the water. Let your lats/core/rotation/and your entire arm be your anchor. (If the lane is crowded he tightens up his recovery a little so he doesn't whack people.)
He was a national champion backstroker/Division I college swimmer. His way of swimming seems revolutionary. He said this is how Janet Evans swam, how Natalie Coughlin swims, how Torres swims, and how Phelps changed his recovery of fly, from bent elbow recovery to swinging over the water momentum recovery.
He says it could avoid a lot of shoulder problems. For me, it will mean relearning to swim.
Hum di dum. Any of you guys ever heard of this approach? At least in demonstrating, his freestyle pulling arm never had a high elbow or bend; he said he was much faster doing backstroke this way and that if I could learn how to do it correctly, I probably would be faster too. And that it would take the stress off my shoulders.
So the idea is never let the arms get above the scapular plane of the body. I need to e-mail him about breaststroke, because I don't see how you can pull without either a fair amount of internal rotation or using high elbows.
Always learning....
Here is a link to a guy that works with Kipp Dye on this scapular plane stuff, Milt Nelms. They are sketches that look like Jules Feiffer cartoons, but focus on sketch number 6; not a high elbow recovery, in line with back (so arm/shoulder is not behind back and causing stress in arm joint).
I think Kipp advocates pulling in this position too.
They actually are the same discussion, since EVF can put a lot of stress on shoulder joints and can force elbows to get behind shoulders, which is I think where the shoulder injuries/impingements begin to take their toll.
Kipp's e-mail to me:
"Here is a link to Milt Nelms sketches. Check out fig. 6 (the front on
view of the swimmer with arm recovery).
www.swimfacts.com/.../flotationaquaticsignature.pdf
You will see that arm isn't in the traditional "high elbow" position but
in a relaxed recovery position wherein the upper arm is in alignment with
the scapula."
Happy 4th to all! (That's from me.)
Cool videos, helpful. Love the progression to full stroke drill. Thanks Isobel, I didn't post these to be complimented on them but thanks anyway.
What I wanted to do is to demonstrate my two options. Either alter this technique to pour more EVF in it, or leave it as is.
In the second sculling video, again based on what I understood from this PT, on the way down it looks like your arms are going beyond your "scapular plane" (extending behind your back and your shoulder joints) and so would be stressing your shoulder joint; What's the scapular plane exactly?
on the second length you look much more in alignment with your shoulders, which is what the PT would advocate to avoid joint pain. That second length is indeed slightly different. What I'm doing is that I use a longer range of motion. On the first 25 I focus on upsweep/final push whereas on the second one I extend the range of motion by grabbing more water by shoulder level I'd say. So I avoid the front quadrant but grab all the rest.
In the progression to full stroke drill, you look like you are awesomely parallel to your shoulder plane: that is, your arm stays right in line with your shoulder and side. OMG I think I understand now.
There you're mentioning that my recovery is made of a lateral raise. For the record, here's what a lateral raise look like
YouTube- Weight Lifting Exercises for Beginners : Lateral Raise Weight Lifting Exercise for Beginners
And yes. My recoveries on both sides are supposed to be limited to a simple lateral raise. Because that's what an arm recovery should be in FreeStyle, and to a large extent, in butterfly too. We're not supposed to be doing arm circles when swimming the Free.
And I usually make sure that I don't break this parallel line by making sure my fingers remain near the surface throughout the recovery. Because if you rotate your body enough while leaving the fingers very close to the surface, then you're likely using a simple lateral raise to recover, which is very safe for your shoulders.
Good drill. I am going to try that. I can't tell with the high elbow recovery if that is crunching your armbone into your shoulder joint a little bit, per the PT. My recovery is fine. I sometimes which it was more relaxed but it is very safe. The only problematic aspects of my Free is the catch. Both shoulder and elbow injuries may pop up if I screw up with the catch.
I am going to get Kipp to see if he can post some demos on YouTube so I'll have an idea of how he swims. When he does, I'll post them here.
That'd be fun. Thanks.
As far as EVF, I am not a good observer of that. Someone else will have to weigh in. Yeah I think there are two different discussion running in parallel. Sorry.
Am working (nagging) on getting demo videos.
Yes, the recovery being advocated is with a straighter arm, more like Janet Evans, rather than the high elbow recovery people like to use.
The pull also is with a straighter arm, or at least with great attention to making sure the elbow is always behind the shoulder joint so that the joint is never hyperextended, aka crunched/smooshed/strained.
It seems like Bill Boomer, Richard Quick (may he rest in peace), and Milt Nelms, as well as Kipp Dye, who I saw here in Boston, are all researching the optimal plane for swimming so that hyperextension at the shoulder joint (and internal rotation) is avoided.
www.drfisio.com.br/artigo3.pdf
The guy who worked with me in California, Allen Varner, showed me that if I snap my hips quickly, initiating my next stroke from my hips (but keeping myself strongly aligned), I can avoid having to pull so far back in freestyle. The pull almost becomes like a breaststroke pull, in terms of how far back it goes, because my hips are pushing me so far forward that my arms don't have time to go all the way back.
It worked in front of him. Will keep trying this. Not sure if this is speedier way to swim but it did take the load off my shoulders and transfer it to my hips.
Kipp Dye, the guy who is talking/researching scapular plane swimming, wanted me to post this revised version of his article with a bibliography.
Weird thing is I was just in California and another swimmer worked with me and brought up the same concept of staying within the scapular plane (not letting my shoulder joints get hyperextended), referring again to Milt Nelms. He said it helps a lot to initiate much more from my hips; then my arms don't have to pull so far back. I tried it and it didn't hurt my shoulder as much.
Kipp says he and Milt Nelms are researching the science of swimming this way, predicting it will certainly protect the shoulder joints and avoid common injuries, and likely will increase speed.
Also I know everyone cares that I got an awesome sunburn on my back from doing a masters practice at Menlo Park. Just one practice. Pale Boston person. Very cool to do practices around the country. And I got to watch my first California kids' meet. Zounds. They all swim fast there.
Isobel, thanks for your posts! Now you really have me paying attention, even though I'm a breaststroker. The attached PDF mentions Thoracic Outlet Syndrome. Been there, done that, but not because of swimming. I had bilateral TOS due to a repetitive stress injury at work. Physical therapy fixed the right shoulder; the left shoulder underwent 41/2 hours of surgery, after physical therapy failed. But, the surgery was successful and my doctor actually ADVISED me to return to swimming to strengthen my shoulders. So, here I am! :D
Question: Can you post a video of a swimmer who demonstrates the perfect freestyle that would avoid the horrors mentioned in that article? Even though I'm a breaststroker, I swim plenty of freestyle and plan to incorporate IM into the competition mix. A video would help tremendously! Thanks!!
I'm so confused by this. This suggested stroke seems eerily familiar to the stroke I am trying to get rid of for the last year. I have spent half my warm-ups for a year now finger tip dragging trying to ingrain the high elbow recovery.
I thought my stroke was similar to the "swinger" and I've noticed my right arm (the one with the aggravated shoulder) seems too straight to be sound for an efficient pull. If I stand on land and swing by arm around at any speed I will feel a pop or click in my right shoulder. When a coach demonstrated the proper motion on deck I felt a lot more strain. Yet I don't notice this strain much at all in the water, and the main benefit I notice from the high elbow is that it facilitates my body to rotate.
:confused:
Like in the original KARATE KID: "Wax on wax off," "Right to circle left to circle." You got to increase the proprioceptive demands on them, for the scapulars take us where we want to go with help from the water.:D
I am a veteran competitive swimmer and have worked on my shoulder injuries from swimming with Kipp Dye for the past 4 years. I use Scapular Plane technique and it is very fast and shoulder safe.
Video links of Scapular Plane Swimming Style:
I have included video links of Natalie Coughlin (freestyle and backstroke)- she explains this stroke style well and demonstrates it. Also a link of Phelp's fly which is scapular plane style.
Natalie Coughlin:
1. www.youtube.com/watch
2. www.youtube.com/watch
Michael Phelps Butterfly:
YouTube- Phelps Shatters 200-meter Butterfly World Record
There is only one thing you need to know about scapular plane swimming in deciding whether or not to do it:
There is a shoulder safe way to swim just as fast or faster than traditional EVF or DPS techniques.
Why wouldn’t you do what is safer for your shoulders in the long run?
How to do it:
Dryland- go through these strokes on dryland.
You should keep your hands/arms within your peripheral vision at all times.
If you get outside your peripheral vision, you are outside the scapular plane.
This puts you in the danger zone for injury and reduces the propulsion you can create.
Freestyle: Place your hand and arm in the water at a naturally slightly bent angle, without hyperextending into DPS. Begin the pull phase as you rotate from your core and hips toward the pulling arm. The arms stays naturally slightly bent. Your pull will be a little shorter than traditional swimming because your arm is not straight and there is no "finish" on the stroke. Let your arm swing out of the water, recover in that same slightly bent angle and rotate to the other side. Core rotation is key for this stroke. Rotate your head with your body to breathe.
Backstroke: The same as the freestyle but on your back. Your arms enter at 10 and 2, rather than stretched up DPS over your head. Lots of rotation, naturally curved arms. A shorter stroke with more core propulsion.
Fly: Same as the freestyle but simultaneous. Keep your head low, not strained, and your hands and arms within your peripheral vision. Phelps' fly is a great example of this.
Since this is a USMS forum, I assume most of us are hoping to be swimming for life. If you continue with EVF and DPS technique you may get lucky and not wreck your shoulders. Or you might be like thousands of other swimmers who swim with varying degrees of shoulder discomfort which eventually either sidelines them from training or racing or puts you on the operating table.
That’s where I ended up from 25 years of training with traditional swimming techniques. If I could take back every DPS drill I ever did and every stroke I swam that way, I would do it in an instant. After 3 surgeries I now happily and sucessfuly use Scapular Plane Swimming. It is hard on your core at first and you have to get strong to be effective with it. But in the long run it will likely save your swimming career...for racing, swimming laps for fun, or just lifetime fitness.
You have nothing to lose by using Scapular Plane technique.... other than the chance that you will be on the side of the pool.... instead of in it.....and cheering on your teammates while you can’t swim anymore.
Thank you, SwimSafe!!! :applaud: :bow: As a former sufferer of bilateral Thoracic Outlet Syndrome (work R.S.I.; I wasn't swimming at the time) who had a first rib resection, I am grateful for your post. Before my surgery, my surgeon promised that if the surgery went as planned, I would be able to get back into swimming after the nerves regenerated. He even recommended swimming! Thankfully, he did an awesome job and here I am swimming again! :bliss:
So, now the goal is to keep my shoulders (and everything else...) healthy. I don't even care if the way I have had to adapt my strokes slows me down. The main thing is that I want to be just like those 80+ year old swimmers at Nationals, someday. I'm 48, but I want to grow up to be just like them. :D
I've been getting great stroke tips on the forums (especially on my primary stroke- breaststroke), as well as from a part-time coach (who is teaching me the 10 and 2 backstroke), but this information and the video clips are the icing on the :cake:.
Cheers!!!
:chug:
