I did a quick search and saw a lot of threads on shoulders with a lot of responses, so if this has been discussed before,
smack (I mean FORGIVE) me,
or something.
But is it possible, and optimal, to swim all four strokes without internally rotating the shoulder joint?
As in sliding the hands in flat, always, rather than "pinkie out/pinkie in" for backstroke, or slightly angled hands (thumb first) for entry in fly (and I think even ever-so-slightly angled hands means slightly internally rotated shoulder joint, means ouch ouch ouch for me). Etc. (for free and ***, too, flat-handed entry, never internally rotating?)
The short answer is yes.
Pinkie and thumb location should be able to be handled by the forearm, not the shoulder, anyway.
2 years ago I had severe shoulder pain because I over rotated on my free recovery. Once the hand came out and palm faced the water at all times, the pain was gone.
All of the strokes can be done effectively with little, if any shoulder rotation (meaning a twisting motion within the socket), but you still need a complete range of motion in order to utilize your arms while swimming.
Work with a coach to make any accommodations you need.
Pinkie and thumb location should be able to be handled by the forearm, not the shoulder, anyway.
Verrry interesting. At first I thought, but no! My dance books of olde say that where the hand goeth, there goeth the shoulder joint and all problems of the shoulder, thereof. (Actually my dance books are not all that old and I'm citing a teacher at Julliard.)
But if I hold my arm straight out, yes, I can move my forearm separately from my shoulder joint, at the elbow, so my hands and forearm can be slightly angled and my shoulder joint doesn't move.
However, with the force/resistance of water, that seems pretty tricky to do without rotating your shoulder joint. Will test this out in slow motion.
May resort to slapping water as thewookiee does. "Thewookieedoes" could be a new term for that kind of entry.
Backstroke requires more body motion. You should never really be on your back while swimming, except in transition from one arm stroke to the other. Your head should remain still while your trunk rotates about its axis. Ideally, your shoulders and hips should be rotating back and forth, so as your hand goes over your head, your pinkie is forced into the water first, since it has to follow your arm and shoulder, which is now the lowest point of your body in the water.
Confusing? Not if you look at some really good backstrokers underwater. Their whole body rotates back and forth on each stroke. Some even look as if they are using a freestyle stroke, they rotate so much.
No I don't think it is possible to swim without any level of internal rotation.
I don't either, although I actually think backstroke requires the most. You can reduce internal rotation of your humerus through technique changes, especially in the recovery portion of the stroke, but if you eliminate it entirely in the pulling phase you won't be able to use your lats very well if at all.
PT exercises for "swimmer's shoulder" do not eliminate internal rotation; they (1) strengthen the external rotators so that one can control internal rotation, and (2) strengthen the muscles that are supposed to keep the head of the humerus from sliding forward upon internal rotation.
As in sliding the hands in flat, always, rather than "pinkie out/pinkie in" for backstroke, or slightly angled hands (thumb first) for entry in fly (and I think even ever-so-slightly angled hands means slightly internally rotated shoulder joint, means ouch ouch ouch for me). Etc. (for free and ***, too, flat-handed entry, never internally rotating?)
I have the same trouble for backstroke when I try to enter pinky first" My shoulders hurt. I have tried rotating the forearm, rotating the whole arm, nothing seems to help. I usually enter the water with the back of my hand. I get told I slap the water while doing this entry but it is the only time my shoulders don't hurt.
I am willing to learn a new way of entering pinky first, if someone can share how to do it without shoulder pain.
No I don't think it is possible to swim without any level of internal rotation. This is especially true for free style though.
Breaststroke there's minimal internal rotation involved on the outsweep.
Fly, you can get away with a pulling pathway internal rotation free, but there may be a bit of rotation during the arm recovery
Back, I know next to nothing about this stroke. I believe that the level of IR is minimal anyway.
Free, IR level could range from minimal to extreme depending on the level of Early Vertical Forearm you want to put to it, and depending on the timing of your pulling relative to body rotation, as CoachT once demonstrated on this site in another thread.
That said, the level of internal rotation that you'll put in your technique can vary a lot, depending on several factors.
Ref to CoachT excellent thread: www.usms.org/.../showthread.php
I hate to be the bearer of anatomic reality....
...but...
Pinky first, or thumb first, is not a direct measure of what your shoulder is doing. The position of your hand is determined by your forearm position at your elbow...that is, pronation or supination of the forearm.
Having said that, a pinky-first entry -- with the forearm in neutral position (neither overly pronated nor supinated) -- can allow for or encourage less internal rotation of the shoulder.
Better to think about the shoulder joint directly... and this is the ugly truth...
Shoulder internal rotation: high-elbow catch
Shoulder external rotation: dropped elbow or doggy paddle
If you goal is to avoid "shoulder internal rotation" swim with a dropped elbow.
Alternatively, if your goal is to avoid rotator cuff impingement that results in swimmers' shoulder, see a physical therapist with expertise in swimming rehab. Strengthening scapular stabilizers and rotator cuff muscles may prevent or cure swimmers' shoulder.
If you are having shoulder pain, changing from thumb-first to pinky-first entry really misses the point and is unlikely to be effective.
RadSwim
I am a thumb and pinky entry, at the same time swmmer. Fingers slightly open this takes the pressure off the forearm and the shoulder. Tense forearm translates to tight shoulders. Light pressure to the catch, major pressure from the catch staight back to the finish. I believe in keeping it simple.
I don't either, although I actually think backstroke requires the most. Didn't know that. Like I said, backstroke.....
Thanks
Having said that, a pinky-first entry -- with the forearm in neutral position (neither overly pronated nor supinated) -- can allow for or encourage less internal rotation of the shoulder. Yep. Palm of the hand that faces the side of the body throughout the recovery also help neutralizing internal rotation.
Better to think about the shoulder joint directly... and this is the ugly truth...
Shoulder internal rotation: high-elbow catch
Shoulder external rotation: dropped elbow or doggy paddle
If you goal is to avoid "shoulder internal rotation" swim with a dropped elbow.
Alternatively, if your goal is to avoid rotator cuff impingement that results in swimmers' shoulder, see a physical therapist with expertise in swimming rehab. Strengthening scapular stabilizers and rotator cuff muscles may prevent or cure swimmers' shoulder.
If you are having shoulder pain, changing for thumb-first to pinky-first entry really misses the point and is unlikely to be effective.
RadSwim I like your style.
I agree with pretty much everything. And if I may, I would add to this that in my opinion, the most probable cause for this sort of shoulder pain is the darn dead spot in the front whilst trying to overreach, which translates into a timing issue. Dead spot in the front whilst body continues to roll means getting late on catch. When that happens, the swimmers must put a lot of weight on the whole pulling path from start to finish, including a lot of weight on catch.
So they end up attempting a high elbow catch whilst applying a lot of pressure during the early phase, with the shoulder being in a vulnerable position.
Solution is to learn to unweight (unload? anyway) to put less pressure during the catch phase and to give progressive acceleration of the hand. As soon as the hand reaches a point where the shoulder is no longer in a vulnerable position, you can then engage the lats putting a lot of weight on that, using body rotation timing to add some more weight, and finishing with an explosive exit which gives you your distance per stroke, instead of waiting in the front for this elbow to undoubtedly drop, or for this shoulder to undoubtedly hurt.
