Sinking hips during recovery in fly

Hey Predrag, if you're still following. Recently whilst working on something else (arm entry width and feeling) I made a little discovery. It's a feeling thing though, not a scientific one (sorry ;-) I needed to slow down the execution a bit, especially the moment between hand entry and the actual catch. I wanted to get this feeling that I'm nose diving while leaving my hands very close to the surface. My fly has been little screwed up as a result of wanting to learn, or get somewhat closer to Phelps's technique. I think those clips he let people publish on youtube, especially the 3 lessons are a huge chance. But in the same time, man, that's not easy to even get close. Like I said, I stopped flying fast, I live on 24 or 36 x 50m fly on 1:05 these days. So, back to the nose diving catch. During breathing recovery, uphill right?. Then after hands entry, downhill. During this slowed down execution with a very slow catch, I could really feel very clearly the moment where the weight shifts from upward to downward. And the hips being the pivotal moment. That, along with the clean entry and nose diving, I truly got the impression that I was keeping the forward momentum (a slow one though, 55s per 50m) at virtually no cost on entry. And more importantly, those hips that act as pivot. I could feel exactly where they are when executing this and they remain very close to the surface during the whole execution. Unfortunately at that speed I can't bring them totally at the surface. But tonight I tried fly at full speed and I really managed to control the depth of this nose diving whilst shallow catching. And by exaggerating the amplitude, well. Something was going on and the time confirmed. But damn is it difficult to learn. Takes huge shoulder flexibility. And I could not get through this without a solid dryland program. Impossible. I also think that Phelps stroke, as you get closer to this, you may loose a good deal of punch over 50m Fly. That technique isn't meant for short sprints. Way too soft on entry / catch.

Hi Solar, yes I'm still following, sorry for a late reply. Thanks for keeping me updated, don't hesitate to do it in future as well. Regarding hands entry, I didn't work on it lately. Although there are some things I tried. I thought that close to the end of the recovery, arms could be stopped before entering the water (by literally fixing the shoulder joint) and they would actually "sink" into the water together with the upper body. Once I feel hands are in the water, I start with the catch. I don't know if it's correct and didn't have time to make some videos of this. I will post once I do them. Also, looking at Phelps' hands entry, I had a feeling that he relaxes shoulders when hands enter the water, so water literally spreads his arms by itself. That way, he makes minimum of drag. Just my opinion :) I managed to swim 75m butterfly recently (with no breaks :)) Also, I reduced my 50m time to 49"6 (without jump, underwater kicking etc). I think I started feeling second upbeat much better. I try to completely relax my hips after the second downbeat and to start upbeat by pushing my thighs downwards. Still not "perfect", but definitely better. Also, I am going to order Speedo Speed Fins (www.amazon.com/.../B001HBHWB6). Since they exaggerate upbeat, I thought I would learn how to make it gentler, since it would pull my body down otherwise. Also, I thought if I put some weights around my hips, my body would try harder to lift them up. Another thing I would like to try is snorkel (in central position), something like www.finisinc.com/.../Adult-Swimmer's-Snorkel---Blue (I don't know why this link doesn't show properly in thread). In combination with dry top attachment, it could be useful for butterfly training as well. I haven't tried it yet, so I'll keep you updated about this as well. Best regards.

Hi Predrag, not sure if you're still active on US MS. Was wondering if you finally came to the bottom of understanding what was causing your hips to sink? (I hope so). Anyway, on my end things have evolved (quite a lot) since 2010. I'm now in charge of a new Butterfly class in our local University and so this has given me great opportunitites to perform stroke analysis etc... Last year I finally put my finger of what I believe to be a cause of hip sinkage. I think this problem is due, or at least aggravated by a Balance that's not right. More specifically. When the legs are recovering (Upbeat) in prep for the first kick (obviously, this upbeat is happening after the 2nd kick downbeat), that adds some weight to the back of the stroke. This upbeat of the first kick does not help you to float, it gets you to sink. The more (and the harder) you pull on your legs bending the knees etc, the bigger the sinkage. I've found that if at this critical moment, your arms are too early into their recovery phase, they too (being positionned at the back of the stroke) add some weight, which worsten the sinkage effect. Add to this the head that must pop out to breathe once in a whilst, you're now up to a lot of weight to the back of the stroke (big balance issue). A stronger first kick downbeat is then required to compensate. It's my opinion that several people maintain this problem without even being aware of it. If you look at the following clip, you can observe 2 fly swimmers. The top one has a PB of 1:01 SCM, the other one can barely break 1:30. Now, look closely for the upbeat preceeding the first kick for Top swimmer. You'll notice that (first) his 2nd kick is delayed until the end (which is good). Therefore the Upbeat of the first kick also gets delayed. As a consequence, when the Top swimmer performs this Upbeat preceeding the first kick, his arms are already almost back at the front of the stroke. In fact, when he initiates the Upbeat, arms / hands are at the front. Also, you'll notice that he doesn't bend the knees aggressively on this Upbeat. In comparison, the swimmer at the bottom, like 90% of masters I'd say, is way too early on the 2nd kick. The Upbeat that follows this early 2nd kick therefore takes place too early. Timing wise the arms are still at the back of the stroke. Add to this that he's very aggressive in pulling up his legs (bending the knees etc). Conclusion, on top of leaving the hand exit prior arm recovey phase without the extra propulsion provided by the 2nd kick that should happen simultaneously, an early 2nd kick can be considered as a potential cause for hip sinkage. Underwater Comparison Of Butterfly Strokes - YouTube Thanks to Lindsay btw for his excellent work in building a massive video clip database.

Hi Charles, thanks for you post. I worked last year exactly on those points you mentioned in your post. I worked on softer upkick and later downkick (or earlier outsweep). When I analyzed my underwater videos, I realised that I finish with my kick when my arms are under my chest, instead of next to my hips. So, I tried really hard to concentrate on "delaying" beginning downkick until my arms are under my chest, that way downkick would finish at the same time as underwater arm stroke. This shortened my extended arms position, increased overall stroke rate and made my fly harder, but timing was much better. Basically, the only part of butterfly that could significantly be extended (in attempt to swim more relaxed) is the position with extended arms at hands entry phase. But it seems to put kick out of timing. I also concentrated on my hands entry. I would usually jump into the water, which would mean that my hands would go together with head deep into the water and then I would lift them up before starting the outsweep (the swimmer in your bottom video does it as well). I think they say "hands lead the undulation" for this wrong movement. Just my thoughts :) Regards. - Predrag.

Hi Charles, thanks for you post. I worked last year exactly on those points you mentioned in your post. I worked on softer upkick and later downkick (or earlier outsweep). When I analyzed my underwater videos, I realised that I finish with my kick when my arms are under my chest, instead of next to my hips. So, I tried really hard to concentrate on "delaying" beginning downkick until my arms are under my chest, that way downkick would finish at the same time as underwater arm stroke. This shortened my extended arms position, increased overall stroke rate and made my fly harder, but timing was much better. Basically, the only part of butterfly that could significantly be extended (in attempt to swim more relaxed) is the position with extended arms at hands entry phase. But it seems to put kick out of timing. I also concentrated on my hands entry. I would usually jump into the water, which would mean that my hands would go together with head deep into the water and then I would lift them up before starting the outsweep (the swimmer in your bottom video does it as well). I think they say "hands lead the undulation" for this wrong movement. Just my thoughts :) Regards. - Predrag. Great mate, as Ande suggested, it would be very informative to have an idea of what your current fly speed is. That said, as far as I'm concerned, I'd love to know how you're doing on a flat out 50m NAD as well (NAD is the name given to this fly drill we both discovered). That thing isn't meant to be performed slow or moderate speed all the time. Ultimately, it should be performed at full speed, ie full race pace undulation rate (my undulation rate over 50 goes over 50 cycles /min). But regardless of all this, two things: My position has changed regarding the Upbeat preceeding the second dolphin kick. In fact, I made a discovery ever since I last updated this thread (sorry for the confusion). Let us say for now that your move to improve your timing in regards to the second kick is a fair investment. As for my new findings, I'll be more than happy to share them with you here as soon as I finish discussing them with Ernest Maglischo, ie certainly one of the only resources available out there in which I have great trust to discuss these matters.

Swim a fast 25 fly for time Let me know what it is

Swim a fast 25 fly for time Let me know what it is Fast 25m? I almost always swim in the sea (with triathlon wetsuit), very rarely in the pool. I'll time it next time, but I guess it won't be below 20" without jump, just push off the wall on start. Won't be much over 20" as well :) I know I'm slow :blush: