Dara Torres-Amazing

Unfortunately it becomes about money, glory, etc. instead of competition. Bingo. At least the money part, or even the perceived money. Paul

It's about cheating, lying and ethics John Smith I disagree with you but am bowing out of this discussion. Paul

Is it against the rules for masters swimmers to use performance enhansing drugs?Yes. These FINA rules apply to all athletes. At this time testing of Masters athletes has not been implemented. But just because FINA is not testing Masters does not make it legal, right or fair.

Personally, I don't think a "personal opinion" requires evidentiary substantiation. In a legal sense perhaps you are right. But an opinion like goggles' is, if not slanderous,at the very least, hurtful. I think if goggles wants to express negative opionions then some sort of explanation is not unwarranted. This is a public forum where everyone expresses their personal opinions all the time. Someone could have "doubts" based solely on the uniqueness of the achievement and the seemingly universal practice of "cheating" in many sports. Not necessarily tantamount to "insinuation." That view's as equally valid as someone believing Torres is just phenomenally talented and employs superior and novel training tactics. I quite agree but there is a qualitative difference between the view that she is phenomenally talented and the view that she is potentially a cheater. Once again, I just think that if people are prepared to make personal opinions public then in all good nature they should be prepared to present at least a little evidence to back them up. Any less and we could run the risk of turning debate into a slandering match of personal opinion volleys. If you're talking "personal opinion." When it comes to meets and competing, all that matters is postitive tests. Couldn't agree with you more on this one, and, quite frankly, until I see any positive test results I believe in her. Syd

Its been a long time since I've looked in on this thread. Its impressive how polarizing this issue has become. Also, how much energy is invested in staking out positions that can neither be confirmed nor refuted. Skepticism is both healthy and understandable. Negative tests really don't mean much. What I am much more interested in is the alternative hypothesis: if she isn't cheating, what is she doing DIFFERENTLY that could account for her performance? I do recall that one of Ande's tip's suggest we change SOMETHING to get different results. I doubt that spending less time in the pool (relative to collegiate standards) and spending more time on core strengthening and resistance training is all that unique among master's athletes. From reading the NYTimes article, its clear that her nearly constant use of massage therapists is very unique; who among us could afford TWO full time therapists? I have no idea if this can be the critical factor. I'm sorry if there has been thoughtful discussion on this topic, but I wasn't willing to review all preceding posts to find it.

There are cheaters in sport and we can't weed them out if we stick our heads in the sand and not question/debate phenomenal performances. Syd, I have an opinion, I'm entitled to it and entitled to express it..... Deal with it!

From the NYT article...The results have been striking. Torres’s muscles have grown longer and leaner, with the exception of those in her back and shoulders, which have thickened. She carries 150 pounds on her 6-foot frame, down from 160 in 2000. Her reaction time off the blocks has improved, and she is more efficient in the water. 10 pounds is an extreme change in body type? Are longer and leaner muscles typically the result of HGH usage? This cycling magazine article, I would be interested to see if the soap eliminates traces in urine and blood or only urine.

So what is it, precisely, that you are looking closely at? Continued advancement in testing, especially when we see performaces such as this along with extreme changes in body type: www.nytimes.com/.../18torres.html FYI...just recently cycling magazine had an article about HGH and dish soap. Apparently even the faintest trace of soap will eliminate any trace of abnormal readings...cheating is easy...sadly.

Dara is getting knocked from preforming great times at her age. There are people doubting she is clean. Does anyone accuse someone like Rich Abrams? No, we say he is in great shape and a super talent? Why can't it be that simple for Dara? If people paid attention to her over the years, they would see that she has kept her body in AWESOME CONDITION! She hasn't been one of these couch potato,weekend warriors. She has stayed very,very fit over the years. The worst part of any accusation about her..it's coming mainly from fellow Americans. Yet, we(same fellow Americans) rip to shreds anyone...anyone that says Lance Armstrong used drugs during his run. We calm that he is a super athlete...and worked hard for his wins.

Hi Syd I'm not privy to any inside information just expressing my PERSONAL OPINION. By choosing to express your PERSONAL OPINION on this forum you made it very PUBLIC. So my question still stands: how did you form this opinion? Failing that please explain if you believe it is okay to INSINUATE under the guise of PERSONAL OPINION without SUBSTANTIATING. Syd