Does anyone else suffer from oxygen debt after tumble turn?

Former Member
Former Member
This is not the least of my worries in swimming, but I tend to fall into oxygen debt after tumble turns. In fact, when I keep doing tumble turns in lap swims, it is less taxing to swim 50 LCM than 25 SCY, because I have more time in 50 LCM to recover from the oxygen debt, whereas in 25 SCY, I have to do another tumble turn and fall, yet again, into oxygen debt, before fully recovering from the previous bout. Do other master swimmers out there suffer from a similar problem? How do you over come this?
  • Former Member
    Former Member
    Yeah, whether it's a mindgame or not the urge is still there and I can often feel it in my muscles especially in tougher sets...towards the end. No pain, no gain.
  • Former Member
    Former Member
    It is not a mind game, or anything of the type, it is CO2 excess. Tthe time it takes to turn allows an increase in the partial pressure of CO2 in your blood stream because you are not ventilating and blowing it off. This subsequently decreases the partial pressure of O2 in your blood because it binds to hemoglobin to deliver O2 to your tissues that are working hard and burning glucose. The problem lies in the fact that you are making tons of CO2, if you aren't blowing it off you feel like you need to take a breath, thanks to the lovely chemoreceptor in the medulla. CO2 is the trigger to make you breath, not O2 debt, unless you have COPD. TN
  • Former Member
    Former Member
    Thank you TN boy for joining my team. The urge to breathe is almost entirely a result of C02 excess in the blood, triggering one respiratory center in the carotid sinus (might have the wordage wrong as I am thinking in portuguese while typing in english). The other respiratory centers are in the third ventricle in the brain and some in the chord. These respond to oxygen decrease in the blood and to H+ ions increase in the liquor (not the one you imbibe, the one that is bathing your chord, medulla and brain). If you have morphine or other narcotics injected into you, you will breathe less often because your triggering will be at above the normal level of 40-43 partial pressure of C02. Thus a patient or a person who is under the influence of narcotics (opioids) breathes less often leading to an "oxygen debt", which might even lead to death! Or take this scenario: a well trained athlete or diver or snokeler or person who dives deap to spear fish, might by mind control stay longer under, but upon coming up he might pass out from oxygen deprivation or he might pass out when the pressures around his blood change thus changing the oxygen content of said blood leading to loss of conscience and maybe death. Not so easy in a swimming pool because you don't change your ambient pressures, and you don't go for that long without breathing. So train your mind by doing the tennesse turn or not breathing or doing intervals, whatever you do, it will work, because the fact that you think you are training your body, when in fact you are training your mind does not interfere with the final result that is that you may swim longer without taking breaths. billy fanstone P.S. The semantics of calling something "oxygen debt" does not change the need to breathe or the results of breathing. Oxygen debt or excessive carbon dioxide, they both lead to a need to breathe, but the excess carbon dioxide is more prevalent, such that when other factors would kick in, this one has taken care of the job, because as you breathe to get rid of excess C02, you also breathe in oxygen.
  • This is not the least of my worries in swimming, but I tend to fall into oxygen debt after tumble turns. In fact, when I keep doing tumble turns in lap swims, it is less taxing to swim 50 LCM than 25 SCY, because I have more time in 50 LCM to recover from the oxygen debt, whereas in 25 SCY, I have to do another tumble turn and fall, yet again, into oxygen debt, before fully recovering from the previous bout. Do other master swimmers out there suffer from a similar problem? How do you over come this? Yes. Most people don't like the feeling of water up their noses, and will subsequently blow air out their noses as they flip. It sounds like you're expelling too much air throughout too much of your turn. This will be painful, but I suggest you do a few turns w/o expelling any air, and get a feel for when exactly the water comes in - when it starts and when it stops. Then you've got to spend some time perfecting a slow nasal exhale only on the part of the tumble where you take in water through your nose. You can also choose to wear a noseclip.
  • I've heard the argument many times that it's actually excess CO2 rather than a lack of O2 that makes you need to breathe. That knowledge doesn't seem to make the desire to breathe any less, though. :)
  • Former Member
    Former Member
    Try this - while you swim exhale and inhale more deeply in general. Maybe take longer, stronger strokes to accommodate the new breathing. You might be getting too worked up (not comfortable in the water) and not breathing right, such that a couple of missed breaths really kills you. Try breathing every third stroke while pulling to help get the hang of this and to further lengthen your stroke and exaggerate the breathing. On those turns, get in and out quicker, and don't panic just because you are anxious for that first breath. 2 full breaths after the turn and you will feel normal again.
  • Former Member
    Former Member
    Firstly, I have not yet come to the knowledge that "oxygen debt" is what causes "air hunger", I think it might be "carbon dioxide excess". But this has been discussed before and I am always glad when the subject pops up again. When you flip, you hold your breath. It is this that is causing your troubles, not the swimming during the turn. So, if you are not consumming oxygen what is happening? By holding your breath (diminishing the intake of oxygen, yes I know) you are not eliminating the C02 that has built up in your lungs as a consequence of acidosis that is a consequence of fatigue. This C02 buildup is the most powerful cause of your wanting to come up for air. The C02 system if far faster to react then the 02 system. So, unless I can find some darn place in the internet that will finally answer my doubts, I stick to the theory that what causes your hunger for air is the excess carbon dioxide buildup in your lungs. That is what happens in snorkeling and in trying to beat the world record of breath holding or swimming underwater longest and so forth. billy fanstone P.S. Hunger for air is a phrase that means you feel you need air, but what you need is to have some exchange going on in your lungs, thus getting rid of the excess carbon dioxide (renovating the alveolii air), plus you get oxygen during this exchange, but mainly you need air to remove the C02, which then permits the blood to liberate C02 into the alveolii, thus diminshing the partial pressure of C02 in the blood (which is the trigger for breathing).
  • Former Member
    Former Member
    This is not the least of my worries in swimming, but I tend to fall into oxygen debt after tumble turns. In fact, when I keep doing tumble turns in lap swims, it is less taxing to swim 50 LCM than 25 SCY, because I have more time in 50 LCM to recover from the oxygen debt, whereas in 25 SCY, I have to do another tumble turn and fall, yet again, into oxygen debt, before fully recovering from the previous bout. Do other master swimmers out there suffer from a similar problem? How do you over come this? I'm worse than you are. I do not do "tumble" or "flip" turns. After more than 45 years of heavy smoking (I quit back in 2002 just as I was becoming borderline emphysemic) I do not have the ability ON DRY LAND to take a full, deep and satisfying breat at will. It either happens or it doesn't (and I'm always happy when I feel the inhalation reach the bottom of my lungs every once in a while). When I do take a deep, full breath I find that my body -unconsciously- forcefully exhales it all out instead of letting it out slowly. This produces a problem for me in swimming turns. In regular swimming, even though I know how I should breathe, many are the times when I don't inhale enough to satisfy me. This means that I do not have enough air in my lungs to slowly exhale throughout the flip (even a quick flip) so as to keep water out of my nose. (Thankfully I do not compete in backstroke. I can swim it but I push off on my belly then twist.) Therefore I will do one of two things when I turn (in Freestyle). If I arrive at the wall on my extended or even semi-extended right arm, (I breathe to my left), I'll do the old-style back somersault (which if done at the right distance and at great speed is, IMHO, faster than the modern flip turns. But if I arrive on my left-arm then it's the open turn. I have debated whether the open turn is so much slower than my old-style back flip that, if I see that I will arrive to the wall on my wrong arm, should I skip a stroke (i.e., do a double one-arm stroke, almost like in drills) and arrive on my good arm, or the advantage gained by the flip (my flip) would be negated by the double one-arm stroke of my left-arm (while my right arm is extended, reaching for the wall). Now, I'm in oxygen debt from this explanation.
  • Former Member
    Former Member
    ... I tend to fall into oxygen debt after tumble turns. ... Do other master swimmers out there suffer from a similar problem? How do you over come this? Yes, this has frequently been a problem for me. (I always do flip turns in free and back.) Fanstone’s post on CO2 excess is excellent food for thought (thanks!). I’ve always found that I have the most problems in turns when I’m distracted (by the noise in my head) and not breathing optimally, usually shortening my inhalations and exhalations (no doubt causing CO2 buildup). I’ve always felt I had to expel too much air out my nose, but after what seems like kergillions of turns it seems I still have to let out a lot. So it seems I’m almost always starved for air coming out of the turn. As a consequence one of my biggest fears is that some moron kid is going to run across the deck and jump on me after a turn and that will be it. I’ve nearly had it happen at least once, by a whole gang of them.
  • Former Member
    Former Member
    I always feel a bit O2 deprived after a turn and pushoff, especially if it's a no breather between the flags and wall coming in and going out. Having said that, within a few strokes and a breath or two I am back into a swimming comfort zone. I have noticed that this problem has become less pronounced since I have clamped down my intervals. It started out a little worse of course, but it keeps getting better and better.
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