This Butterfly might get you disqualifed

although the video is not included with the post i believe i have seen the stroke ... if trying to rest i've always thought that putting the hands together and dolphin kicking with head above surface would be a better way or resting on the wall ... the violation is described as after the 15 yd/mtr mark - "the swimmer must remain on the surface until the next turn or finish"

vimeo.com/248356962 I have been having trouble getting the link to display in this thread, so maybe if you cut and paste the line above, it will work. Jackback - I am a certified Stroke/Turn for both USA Swimming and USMS (highschool/college as well). what you describe doing is legal. You just have to be sure NOT to scull with your hands while taking a breath. Freestyler - it has not been an issue, but no one is looking at it either. I suppose we could take the "wait until it is broken" approach, but doing that will mean someone has to be DQ'd for something they should not be DQ'd for. The "resubmerge" wording was put in to prevent swimmers from surfacing before the 15 mtr mark and then re-submerging so they could streamline dolphin kick. Simply going slow without intending to submerge should not, in my mind, be reason fro DQ. Changing the Rule means FINA has to change it - that will not happen. Instead, I would like to see USMS Rules develop an interpretation before someone is DQ'd. I suppose I could DQ someone at the next nationals so it has to be dealt with, but that is the wrong approach - imho. Paul Windrath

From where I'm sitting, it looks like your heels are going below the surface just as your head breaks it. Perhaps it is due to the resolution of the video. Has this been an issue for many masters swimmers?

_Steve_ Not quite. The rule requires the entire body to be submerged at the same time - not just the rear. Admittedly, my attempt to completely submerge should be better and longer. Usually what happens is a swimmer's upper body (arms, head, shoulders, rear) submerges and then their feet/heels pop out of the water at the same time. This is what makes the call difficult, if not impossible, to make. This might be a better vantage point: vimeo.com/248535719 However, I have observed at least 4 slower fly swimmers who completely submerge long enough that there is no doubt. We tend to see our rules as cast in stone and they never change. A look back shows that is NOT true. In the 50s and 60s, a freestyler had to touch the wall with their hand. Until the early 90s, backstroke was completely on your back. In the 70s and 80s, it was legal for backstrokers to stand on the gutter (as long as their heels were in the water) and do "back dives" for starts. Until the 80s, your head had to stay above the surface of the water - ALL THE TIME - swimming breaststroke. ZOf course, we know about the dolphin kick during the underwater pull-outs on breaststroke. Someday, Backstroke will be done with a forward start.... Happy Holidays! It is time to to clarify this resubmerge rule - imho. Paul

was able to see it with the repost ... stopping the action repeatedly might show a "moment" where your not on the surface but thats with the advantage of stop action ... i just can't do this, i need the momentum gained to continue with the next stroke, of course i can't swim the 200 fly nonstop either ... also holding the hands together helps to prevent that sculling motion

So the portion of the body that is failing to surface is the rear?

As an official, I think I would first look at whether the swimmer was breaking the surface during each stroke cycle, as in breaststroke. This "resubmerging" scenario can be even more pronounced when Masters swimmers are using a breaststroke kick instead of dolphin kick. If the swimmer is resubmerging to make it more of a kicking race, then that's one thing, but if it takes place as part of their normal stroke cycle, then I think some discretion would be in order. This discussion reminds me of when Sheila Taormina was coaching our Masters team and she would be yelling at me "I want to see you butt every stroke!" when I was swimming fly...

In the 70s and 80s, it was legal for backstrokers to stand on the gutter (as long as their heels were in the water) and do "back dives" for starts. I was brought up in the era of "toes over the gutter" backstroke starts. After a 27 year layoff, I came back to the sport about 3 years ago. This is the one rule change I haven't been able to adapt to. If I try a "legal" backstroke start now, there's about a 50/50 chance my feet just slide down the wall and I'm left floating vertical right in front of the block. :afraid: Even if I keep my feet from sliding down, I still get very little lift and momentum, resulting in a back flop of epic proportions. Until the 80s, your head had to stay above the surface of the water - ALL THE TIME - swimming breaststroke. And if I remember right, your hands couldn't break the surface on the recovery, either.

Mark, Your paragraph 1 & 2 comments are exactly why I would like to see Masters "issue" an interpretation. Without an interpretation, DQs will take place on the basis of discretion and personal interpretation - neither of which leads to consistency. To date, I think the officials are making the right call, as you mention, if the resubmerge takes place as part of their normal stroke cycle." Masters could be out in front of this and avoid an official making the wrong call. Many years ago, there were questions about which part of the arm had to break the surface during the butterfly recovery. Some officials used the fingers, other looked at the elbow, others looked at the shoulders - all independent of each other. Then there was the official who felt the water surface was arbitrary and simply judged if the arm recovery on the basis of the "path of the arms." This is a great example of personal interpretation and discretion being used to avoid making a tough call. Paul

Gary P - So we keep this thread pure to the original Title, I will start another thread about discriminating against against backstrokers.