At the past 4 Masters meets I officiated (including 2 Nationals), I have observed slower butterfliers completely submerged at some point in the stroke cycle (after surfacing before the 15 mtr mark). Although the swimmer is not attempting to submerge for the purpose of streamline dolphin kicking, their momentum coupled with slow turn-over takes them completely underwater for short periods of time.
The video link - http://vimeo.com/248356962 - shows me swimming slow fly. For brief moments I am completely submerged with no forward propulsion - just resting before the next stroke.
An overly strict, by-the-rules official would be within the rules to DQ a swimmer doing butterfly like the video. It is called "resubmerging after the 15 mtr mark".
This is one of those cases where Masters might need an interpretation of the rule - specific for masters swimmers - that allows for submerging during a stroke cycle provided the swimmer does not perform more than "x" dolphin kicks while submerged.
67King,
I would agree with you. I might send to a USA Swimming National level official and see what she thinks. There is a butterflyer at RPI who swims like Yuma and she has never been DQ'd.
What I have heard from some USA Swimming officials is that it almost impossible to make the resubmerge call because the swimmer's tempo is sufficiently fast that they cannot be sure the entire body is submerged.
Thanks!
Hi Orca1946,
The only reason I would DQ someone is to generate dialogue within the Rules Committee. I have asked a couple of times and, so far, they do not want to write an interpretation for this. The rules are quite clear and do not comment about "kicking and arm stroke in a rhythm as in all fly" or allow an official to use discretion. Maybe I have to enter fly and get someone to DQ'd me. Then, I can protest and, hopefully, get it to the "supreme court" for a decision.
Now, believe it or not, I have seen the same thing when someone did double arm backstroke with a dolphin kick and was fully submerged. Same concern applies, but much less common.
Paul
So you "might" DQ a masters fly swimmer that is going that slow because they are under water for X amount of time?
They seem to be still be kicking and arm stroking in a rhythm as in all fly.
Someday, Backstroke will be done with a forward start I would be happy to see this happen. would definitely even out the differences between pools - some pools make for easy starts, but with most, my feet slip or it is impossible to get in any position of leverage.
I haven't seen it come up yet in Masters, but as an official, we've been struggling with this resubmerge rule in our kids rec league. We have a number of, what I call in the most endearing way, "little sinkers", who have trouble making it 25 yards of anything on the surface. They're not trying to gain an underwater advantage, they're trying not to drown (much like many slower masters butterfliers, including myself). Some officials have started DQing these little drowners to make a point for rule clarification. Our kids league generally follows USA swimming rules but has a few items a bit more relaxed, for example in butterfly as long as some PART of the arm breaks the surface while being brought forward, our league considers it acceptable. However, there is a difference between the rule in freestyle and the rule in butterfly. In freestyle, some part of the body must BREAK the surface throughout the race after 15 meters. In breaststroke, even though there is no 15m rule, the head must BREAK the surface each stroke cycle. This is in contrast to the butterfly rule which states the swimmer must remain ON the surface. ON the surface is different from BREAKING the surface and allows some flexibility for the "sinky" potentional in butterfly. Should this be clarified, maybe. But the rule does not state needing to break the surface at any point in the stroke cycle other than arms which need to be over the surface. This initially seems in conflict with not being allowed to resubmerge. However, resubmerging would not allow the arms to recover over the surface throughout the race. Swimming on the surface, you could recover your arms over even if no other part of the body has broken the surface. I think in general this rule is being interpreted properly by officials, which is the only thing that makes me wonder if it needs official clarification.
You two are not old enough to realize that someday that frog kick will help get your shoulders out of the water, so you can perform a legal recovery. :applaud:
You two are not old enough to realize that someday that frog kick will help get your shoulders out of the water, so you can perform a legal recovery. :applaud:
Whoa, I had never seen or heard of this before. I'd personally rather them allow the dolphin kick on the *** than the frog kick on fly, though!
We tend to see our rules as cast in stone and they never change. A look back shows that is NOT true.
While this is certainly true, I wouldn't want to see masters rules or interpretations diverge from non-masters. In fact I think "butterfrog" should be banished from masters, but it's probably not going to happen.
