Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?

:applaud: It's also arbitrary and opens up a :worms:. If we're going to exclude really fast young people just because they spend their profession is swimming, are we going to then exclude retired folks who have all the time in the world to dedicate to their sport and swim, maybe training with the same ferocity and commitment as the 'elites?' Patrick, You must be joking about us retired folk. Sure we have the time, but the energy is a whole other matter. I've recently been volunteering as an assistant coach for a Division I swim team. I absolutely cannot believe the swimmers' capacity for hard work, both in and out of the water. Makes me tired just watching them.

I'd bet if you asked Darian Townsend if he knew he could swim exhibition, he would not know. And yet Natalie Coughlin knew she could swim exhibition at a masters meet she competed in. If you wanted more competition, you could swim in USAS meets.

And yet Natalie Coughlin knew she could swim exhibition at a masters meet she competed in. If you wanted more competition, you could swim in USAS meets. That's a valid request. I am a USAS member but don't even make cuts for Nationals and Grand Prix. So now I am swimming on the regional/state level. I couldn't go to either meet last/this year (regional nor states) because it's a 4-5 day meet and with a full-time job, I can't take off that much time. My events were during the week. So I guess there was no way for me to swim, because losing my job over swimming isn't an option and I didn't qualify in off events "that fit my schedule". So I went to 3 meets that were more local and just the weekend. I still had no competition and spent 12 hour+ days at the pool waiting for events. For all those reasons: I love masters swimming: I don't know one adult who doesn't swim professionally or works in aquatics who has time to spend all weekend at the pool. That's why there is masters swimming, right? For those full-time job people that swim as a hobby more or less competitive. I don't now why these posts became so personal, but I am sure i am not the only person in USMS who was personally impacted by this. Did I complain? No. But somebody posted this thread to start a conversation and I am sorry that my opinion differs from 99% of the people in this thread. That doesn't mean my opinion is solely about myself. It is not. I am all for USMS being inclusive, but for the sake of this thread, I gave my opinion, and since it differs from what people want to hear, I guess it's a wrong opinion.

Note – Britta may be the only person posting on this thread who has been personally impacted by the scenario in question. I am not sure who are the posters in the past, but I believe this statement is false. Britta is not the only person impacted by this but one of many. Anyone USMS member who swam in the meets listed below and some of these swimmers were National Team members at the time of swim impacted both USMS Records and Number 1 USMS Top Ten Times. Rather than list all of the swimmers, I have linked the meets so people can see all of the swimmers and some of the them are current or past USA Swimming National Team members. www.usms.org/.../meet.php www.usms.org/.../meet.php www.usms.org/.../meet.php www.usms.org/.../meet.php As an aside; it looks like Jendrick’s Olympic Trials time is the record for the 100 *** (1:09.81), but her 200 *** at the same meet (2:34.09) isn’t. Did someone forget to measure the pool after the 200BR? This statement is false. All of the Olympic Trials times were counted for USMS National Records and if swimmers did not request them to count for either Top Ten or National Records, then those are the only times that would not show up. The 2:34.09 was the record until this year and Justine Mueller broke that record with a time of 2:29.80 and she also broke the 100 *** Record of 1:09.81 with a time of 1:09.10. I see that Britta is currently 2nd in both those events in the 2013 LCM prelim top ten but is first in the 50 *** just like 2012 so she selected All American for her efforts. Eugene Godsoe, is an example of a current National Team member breaking a USMS National Record in the 100 LCM Free in the 18-24 age group by an USMS swimmer named Noah Copeland, who is not a USA National Team member. But then Josh Schneider broke his record, and I am not sure if he is a USA National Team member, but he is an NCAA Champion, which in my book is equal status. The bottom line in all this is that this has been happening for years and its not an isolated incident to one swimmer

Even if I don't agree with your opinion at least you came up with a clear cut definition of who should be excluded from setting masters records. If there was a rule stating current National team members were not eligible for records I don't think I'd have a huge problem with it.

That's a valid request. I am a USAS member but don't even make cuts for Nationals and Grand Prix. So now I am swimming on the regional/state level. I couldn't go to either meet last/this year (regional nor states) because it's a 4-5 day meet and with a full-time job, I can't take off that much time. My events were during the week. So I guess there was no way for me to swim, because losing my job over swimming isn't an option and I didn't qualify in off events "that fit my schedule". So I went to 3 meets that were more local and just the weekend. I still had no competition and spent 12 hour+ days at the pool waiting for events. For all those reasons: I love masters swimming: I don't know one adult who doesn't swim professionally or works in aquatics who has time to spend all weekend at the pool. That's why there is masters swimming, right? For those full-time job people that swim as a hobby more or less competitive. I don't now why these posts became so personal, but I am sure i am not the only person in USMS who was personally impacted by this. Did I complain? No. But somebody posted this thread to start a conversation and I am sorry that my opinion differs from 99% of the people in this thread. That doesn't mean my opinion is solely about myself. It is not. I am all for USMS being inclusive, but for the sake of this thread, I gave my opinion, and since it differs from what people want to hear, I guess it's a wrong opinion. I wouldn't want to sit around at USAS meets either. So I get that. But we all have competition in our age group. I was not an "elite" as an age grouper and only swam one year in college. My main competition in my age group now are a 1980 olympian, a couple olympic trialists and the greatest masters swimmer of all time. Not exactly easy going. I'd rather be inclusive. But I also agree with Kirk's last post.

Even if I don't agree with your opinion at least you came up with a clear cut definition of who should be excluded from setting masters records. If there was a rule stating current National team members were not eligible for records I don't think I'd have a huge problem with it. I think we have a compromise that works so I would be in disagreement with not letting National Team members establish USMS National Records. First, a swimmer must be a registered member of the USMS. Second. they have to follow all of our USMS rules for the record to be established namely record applications, pool measurements, and copies of either birth certificate/passport. This is the step where most of these swimmers don't have the time to do it, plus you have probably most of the swimmers not even thinking about this because they are trying to make one of the teams that travels to World University Games, Pan American Games, Pan Pacs, World Championships, and the Olympic Games. If for some reason, a swimmer breaks a USMS National Record and completes the USMS process, then they should be awarded the USMS National Record. The compromise is, they can't get a FINA World Record unless they swim in a USMS sanctioned event. If we did what Britta wanted to do, I could see all problems with this. For instance Eugene Godsoe was not a National Team member until this past summer so in his case he would have USMS Records and then they would stop once he was a National Team member. Same with BJ Johnson, Dara Torres, and others. Top Ten recorders have enough to do then adjusting meet results for these swimmers and keeping track of who is on the USA National team at the time of there swims. Clark Burckle attended the 2013 Nationals this past summer. He was an 2012 Olympian and finalist in the breaststroke events at the 2013 National and World Trials meet and because he did not make the team, should he get the USMS Record and not BJ Johnson who was a finalist and did make the team. This is just nuts. Both are members of USMS. Clark actually got a World Record because he swam in a USMS sanctioned meet and BJ did not because FINA won't allow WR's in non sanctioned meets. So it worked out for both swimmers. Clark will not be able to claim All American in the 100 and 200 *** but like Britta he was first in the 50 *** and will be All American for his efforts.

My reasons are irrelevant and unimportant. I coach a huge Masters team and have about a dozen Top Ten swimmers in various age groups and multiple events. None have ever complained about getting smoked by a fast elite swimmer. In fact, all love it when we get the chance to go up against the best. I heard the bell at my 900 on a 1000 once because of a super stud next to me. While my first reaction was despair, I then realized how awesome it was to be beaten by one of the best in the world. ? I have to agree with Geek. I swam at a meet his team puts on in December of 2011. In two of the events, I stood on the blocks next to two members of Team Elite. I knew my chances of winning those races were about as good as geek growing facial hair. But those were two of my favorite masters meet moments. I raced to the best of my ability in each event. When the "elites" finished, they started cheering for the rest of us in each heat. They were the first to congratulate the rest of the swimmers. In the warm-down pool, they even offered pointers to people. If they pay their annual membership fee, they should be allowed to compete in usms. Their times should count for top ten and/or record, even if they are currently on a national team. If they follow usms rules, there isn't a valid reason for excluding them.

Since I have little to no competition in my age group, I am going after rankings and records to find motivation. So, to get your rankings you want to exclude the only people that can beat you? It would seem that if you are so great as to lack meaningful competition you would actually want competition. It is called a competition right?

I don't know one adult who doesn't swim professionally or works in aquatics who has time to spend all weekend at the pool. That's why there is masters swimming, right? For those full-time job people that swim as a hobby more or less competitive. I know dozens if not a few hundred full time non swimming professionals who spend all weekend at meets. They are called volunteer officials and parent volunteers. Heck, I know three volunteers meet directors who put on a Grand Prix meet annually. For every Masters swimmer there is a different reason for why they swim.