Should elites in "full training" mode swim in masters meets?

So, if someone faster than you meets your definition of a real masters swimmer and beats you then it is OK. But, if someone is faster than you and isn't a real masters swimmer and deprives you of a trinket, then it isn't OK. I'd like this rule discussed at next year's convention. I would like a committee to decide who is and isn't a real masters swimmer. My first petition is to declare knelson and pwb unreal masters swimmers so I can move up on the Top Ten rankings annually. If you read my post beginning to end, you would have read that I define an elite swimmer as a National Team member. I think thats a pretty easy distinction to make. Read before you rip my post apart!

If you read my post beginning to end, you would have read that I define an elite swimmer as a National Team member. I think thats a pretty easy distinction to make.For any country? Current year? So, you're OK with Allison Schmitt coming to a Masters meet this year as she makes her comeback and breaking all the records she wants (e.g., she's not currently on the National Team)? How about the event? Could Josh Schneider come and swim the 50 fly and 100 free since he made the National Team on the basis of his 50 free? How much time has to pass after a swimmer has been on the National Team before they are allowed to swim and set Masters records? Would you turn away Rebecca Soni today if she decided that Masters was the right venue for her to continue her competitive swimming?

For any country? Current year? So, you're OK with Allison Schmitt coming to a Masters meet this year as she makes her comeback and breaking all the records she wants (e.g., she's not currently on the National Team)? How about the event? Could Josh Schneider come and swim the 50 fly and 100 free since he made the National Team on the basis of his 50 free? How much time has to pass after a swimmer has been on the National Team before they are allowed to swim and set Masters records? Would you turn away Rebecca Soni today if she decided that Masters was the right venue for her to continue her competitive swimming? I would exclude (that is ONLY from record lists and Top Ten, not from competition) only current National Team members of any country. Not all countries make a distinction by event, therefore, if your name is on the current NT list for that year, your times don't count, regardless of event. So yes, Allison Schmitt and Rebecca Soni are more than welcome to swim masters AND break records, as they a re currently not on the National Team. As to how much time has to pass: as soon as your off the list, you're good to go. Masters is a great avenue to keep swimming competitvely to make it back to the top. People should be encouraged to compete in USMS. So since this thread is about "elites", I first came up with a definition of what an "elite" is. For me, that's a current NT member. You can't define an elite swimmer by saying somebody is in full training mode or not, as every swimmer is different. Using the current NT lists, is a straight forward distinction to who would qualify for records and TT and who doesn't.

For those who are interested, the current USA National Team can be found at ( www.usaswimming.org/DesktopDefault.aspx ) Also remember the opinions expressed are those of the author. While you may disagree with the opioions, please respect the author’s right to hold them and write them here. Note – Britta may be the only person posting on this thread who has been personally impacted by the scenario in question. If not for swims by the amazing Megan Jendrick, Britta would be holding a few more USMS records. As an aside; it looks like Jendrick’s Olympic Trials time is the record for the 100 *** (1:09.81), but her 200 *** at the same meet (2:34.09) isn’t. Did someone forget to measure the pool after the 200BR?

What is wrong with split requesting, other than being annoying?

Also remember the opinions expressed are those of the author. While you may disagree with the opioions, please respect the author’s right to hold them and write them here.I do. I just disagree. Note – Britta may be the only person posting on this thread who has been personally impacted by the scenario in question. If not for swims by the amazing Megan Jendrick, Britta would be holding a few more USMS records. I get it and I feel her pain - I broke the 400 free National record that stood at the start of the 2009 SCM season, but a certain former German Olympian went even faster. Yes, we were both 40-something at the time, but I could argue that his former training as a member of the German National Team disadvantaged me and advantaged him. In fact, I'm sure it did. But, it still doesn't matter - he was faster at 40-44 than any registered USMS swimmer had ever been -- and I don't think it should matter at any age. In my opinion, we should not exclude a certain class of members from our sport just because they are at a certain stage of their training and/or how they are pursuing their living at a certain age in their lives.

I do. I just disagree. I get it and I feel her pain - I broke the 400 free National record that stood at the start of the 2009 SCM season, but a certain former German Olympian went even faster. Yes, we were both 40-something at the time, but I could argue that his former training as a member of the German National Team disadvantaged me and advantaged him. In fact, I'm sure it did. But, it still doesn't matter - he was faster at 40-44 than any registered USMS swimmer had ever been -- and I don't think it should matter at any age. In my opinion, we should not exclude a certain class of members from our sport just because they are at a certain stage of their training and/or how they are pursuing their living at a certain age in their lives. I agree with your post partially. You talk about a former German Olympian. I don't think you can distinct "former" elite athletes or National Team members/Olympians for life from anything. That's why I set the only criteria as currently being on a National Team. Both my parents are Olympians: does that mean that my mom's 100 free SCM time of 1:40+ in the 55+ age group shouldn't count?! I think the discussion we are having is a really interesting one and obviously goes far beyond the original question if "elites in full training mode should compete in master meets". Maybe we need to open a new thread for the records/TT discussion to really take off. Would be interesting to see what other people that were actually directly affected by this have to say.

If you read my post beginning to end, you would have read that I define an elite swimmer as a National Team member. I think thats a pretty easy distinction to make. Read before you rip my post apart! I actually read your post, maybe even twice, and then I quoted it. I simply find your opinion to be self serving so that you can get more records or TTs. So, you don't get a TT or a #1 ranking, so what? Is it that important? Is excluding swimmers to guarantee yourself a trinket what USMS is all about? There will always be someone faster. You want to exclude faster people simply because they are faster, and for no other reason. I don't want to be in a race next to someone who I know can't break records. If NT members don't want their times to count I assume they can go exhibition at meets. I did this in an 800 last summer. A fellow Masters swimmer and I knew we would be in the top 3 of a USAS meet so we declared ourselves as exhibition swimmers so that the kids could get the medals.

If we simply raise the minimum age for Masters swimming to 30, then (with rare exceptions) this problem goes away. Of course then USMS becomes less inclusive.

I actually read your post, maybe even twice, and then I quoted it. I simply find your opinion to be self serving so that you can get more records or TTs. So, you don't get a TT or a #1 ranking, so what? Is it that important? Is excluding swimmers to guarantee yourself a trinket what USMS is all about? There will always be someone faster. You want to exclude faster people simply because they are faster, and for no other reason. I don't want to be in a race next to someone who I know can't break records. If NT members don't want their times to count I assume they can go exhibition at meets. I did this in an 800 last summer. A fellow Masters swimmer and I knew we would be in the top 3 of a USAS meet so we declared ourselves as exhibition swimmers so that the kids could get the medals. ] I'd bet if you asked Darian Townsend if he knew he could swim exhibition, he would not know. My post is not about myself only, and that you read it that way is your own personal definition. But since you ask if it is that important: yes, to me, personally it is. Since I have little to no competition in my age group, I am going after rankings and records to find motivation. I especially like meets where men and women are mixed so I don't have to swim a race all by myself. I'm not saying I am so much better than anybody else, but you asked me if that's important to me and here is the reason why it is. For example: I swam a zone record in the 400IM LCM earlier this year, simply by pushing myself by setting a time as a goal I wanted to reach. The next person in that race (regardless of age group, it was seeded by time) was over 1min behind me. So why not use this as a motivation? I used to swim on a level that I will never reach again so "breaking personal best times" isn't an option for me. What is your personal motivation? Maybe you can get me an idea to get away from my current approach. Overall, this thread asked if elite swimmers (you put your own definition behind this) should be allowed to compete. And I said, yes of course they should. And only excluded current NT members from TT and records. I think that is a pretty fair thought if they compete on a level where they are not worries about setting state and zone records but national and world records. I doubt a current NT member would care if their time counts for TT or records. But that would be an interesting question to ask one of them.