Balls, flat, or clueless? [feet off the walls]

Lump, The post number 27 has the videos. Why would pushing off a wall from in the water be different from pushing off from any other surface? I know this is a joke but their are swimmers on this site who really want to get better and anecdotal evidence is not helping them. Good luck, Coach T.

Pushing off the wall with a flat foot for a turn is the best way and should be taught and every swimmer who wants a faster time should work at it. I have always had a hard time pushing off the wall from a flat foot. Some of the things we need to improve to drop times may seem insignificant but sometimes even a little improvement can be very important to a swimmer. Good luck, Coach T.

Pushing off the wall with a flat foot for a turn is the best way and should be taught and every swimmer who wants a faster time should work at it. I have always had a hard time pushing off the wall from a flat foot. Some of the things we need to improve to drop times may seem insignificant but sometimes even a little improvement can be very important to a swimmer. Good luck, Coach T. This must be the biggest wind-up of all time!! Pushing off the wall with a flat foot? If you are proposing using this technique, I'd like to know how good the swimmers are, that you coach.

... I NEVER EVER pushed off with a flat foot. Not even when starting a set from a push. The only flat foot I use is on the start on the blocks. I even tried it (a flat foot flip turn) and talk about screwed up.....this is BAD advice IMHO. In 30 plus years of swimming I've never heard it... I'd never coach this to someone to use in competition....EVER. Sanity prevails at last!! Can I ask members here to try pushing off the walls with flat feet, then report back? It is clear to me that many posters in this thread haven't even tried it. I coach two sessions a day, masters in the morning and age-groupers at night. All swimmers (57 turned up for training) gave this a try yesterday. Every one of them agreed it was a ridiculous thing to do.

Michael Phelps does it. Natalie Coughlin does it. Brendan Hansen does it. I've listened to some of the best coaches in the world describe the collapse of the foot onto the wall. Yike, don't get personal, just look at the videos. You'll find world class athletes, push-off the wall from a flat foot. Michael Phelp's coach works to improve his stroke, it must mean he doesn't do things perfectly. If we coach from what we believe is correct doesn't make it correct. Sorry this discussion has gotten you briefs in a gather. Take a deep breath. I concede that some swimmers don't push-off from a flat foot and my contention is that if the learned how to push-off from a flat foot they'd go farther and faster. Your contention is that I'm wrong. I can live with that but the insults aren't necessary.

Can I ask members here to try pushing off the walls with flat feet, then report back? It is clear to me that many posters in this thread haven't even tried it... I tried in my workout yesterday. I found that collapsing my foot just enough to let the heels touch really engages a lot more leg muscles, like Coach T is saying. It was not faster for me, but I can see how it could be if I work on it. The feeling was the same as doing squats. If you start on your toes a little, for balance, and slowly rock back toward your heels, there is a sweet spot where your leg muscles feel like they're all perfectly aligned.

I do not think tomtopo is advocating that the whole sole of the foot should contact the wall at once, or that one should wait to push off until the whole sole is against the wall. If he is, I disagree with him. What I think tomtopo is advocating, and what the videos he presented show, is that the swimmer should articulate through the foot during the push. The first contact between feet and wall is at the balls of the feet, but as the swimmer pushes the foot collapses toward the wall so that the heels touch or nearly touch. There's a nice image toward the end of the Ian Thorpe video, taken as he flipped against a glass wall, in which you can see this foot articulation. Especially for shorter races, I think this way is the best way to do it and it is the way I try to do it. When I race a good 50 back, which these days is my best race after the 1500/1650 (?!?), my heels contact the wall so that I can get a solid, powerful pushoff for the second 25. In distance races, especially short course, I tend not to push off quite as hard, not because the turns are less important (they are if anything more important) but because I can't repeat a jump at maximum power 59+ times within 20 minutes.

This will be my last post for this thread and as the votes tell, I’m not winning any converts so the balls of the feet are winning. I offer the following videos (again and more) of great swimmers telling and showing you that planting your feet on the wall is an advantage. I suspect most coaches don’t spend a great deal of time training feet planting because when a swimmer has a great turn it’s looked at as a God given gift. I’d like to think that that turning technique is more than a gift. If you can get away from the wall nicely, by pushing off the balls of your feet, it shouldn’t negate coaches from helping their swimmers to develop a more effective habit (may take 6 to 8 weeks) of planting their feet more firmly on the wall and less on their toes. It’s not easy and as you can tell by the voting, not very well accepted. Look at the videos and the testimonies and think about it. I’ve heard Reese, Marsh, Kenny/Quick and other great coaches talk about planting feet firmly and feeling as if they’re (swimmers) bouncing off the walls like a trampoline. So thanks for your time and some nice and not so nice debate. Good luck, Coach T. Natalie Coughlin “Flip turns are much like jumping on land.” YouTube - Natalie Coughlin Swim Tip #5: Flip Turn Michael Phelps plants entire foot on wall YouTube - Michael Phelps turn Ian Thorpe “He places both feet (not balls of the feet) on the wall and literally bounces off the surface.” The last frames of the video show both feet clearly on the wall. YouTube - Ian Thorpe - Beneath the suit - the turn Brendan Hansen YouTube - Brendan Hansen Men's 200m Breastroke Testimonials “Land - Extend your legs, landing your feet squarely on the wall, toes pointing up. As you get better, you will want to be close enough to the wall to have your feet land with your knees and hips are bent appropriately, knees near a 90 degree angle, hips near 110 degrees.” The Basics of the Swimming Flip Turn Source: EnduranceCoach.com “With your feet firmly planted on the wall shoulder-width apart and your hands together, push off by extending your body until your arms are fully extended over your head in streamline position, and your legs are straight.” Perfecting Your Flip Turn Article from CTS Article By Natalie Bojko, Carmichael Training Systems Posted Apr. 11, 2008 “Extend your legs, landing your feet squarely on the wall, toes pointing up. As you get better, you will want to be close enough to the wall to have your feet land with your knees and hips are bent appropriately, knees near a 90 degree angle, hips near 110 degrees. “ The Freestyle Flip Turn for Swimmers - Basics of the Freestyle Swimming Flip The Basics of the Swimming Flip Turn By Mat Luebbers, About.com Guide “As you do the flip, have your legs rotate over from the hips and minimize bending at the knees. Have your feet land about 20 to 25 inches deep in the water and about 1 to 2 inches (ideally) from the wall (for an adult). After your feet come over, extend your legs and make gentle but quick contact with the wall with the bottoms of your feet” www.wikihow.com/Do-a-Flip-Turn-(Freestyle

I am a balls guy, but I look at the vids provided and I see where Coach T is comming from. I also know that I should be swimming closer to the wall before starting my turn. Alas, I am a lazy, lazy guy. It makes sense to me that the foot should be flexed as much as possible before starting the push. That would mean that the heels are pretty darn close to touching the wall. If I took the extra half stroke, my heels would be in contact (or very close to it) and I would reap the rewards of a stronger push off, staying longer underwater, and dying the last ten yards of the race. I agree with Coach T.

I’m not winning any converts so the balls of the feet are winning. You won't get any converts because it's totally wrong to do what you are suggesting. It's like arguing the case for a 'sitting' start and wondering why swimmers will still insist on diving off the blocks! If you can get away from the wall nicely, by pushing off the balls of your feet, it shouldn’t negate coaches from helping their swimmers to develop a more effective habit Please take my word for it, there is no more effective technique. I still suspect you haven't tried pushing off the wall with flat feet and heels touching. There's nothing wrong with the idea of looking for ways of improving swimming technique, and consequently speed, and I applaud you for attempting to find the holy grail. For the last four years I have been working on developing a new pull for front crawlers. I'm fortunate in having contact with many of the world's top masters swimmers who have introduced this into their training programme. In May, I'll be running Europe's premier masters training camp where 100 masters will be giving it a try. I'll report back.