Balls, flat, or clueless? [feet off the walls]

I agree with Coach GG!

I agree with Jim Thornton that short axis strokers get a flatter, though still rolling, foot push-off, just because of the kind of turn that is done. While the long axis strokers tend to have more rolling off, emphasis, on the ball of the foot. On the HS boys' team that I help coach, we have a swimmer who has had 17 operations to set his former "club" feet straight. Because his ankles are very inflexible, he does a mostly flat feet pushoff; because he cannot 'roll' off the balls of his feet, he gets a little stuck before his breakout, but when he uses one dolphin kick, then flutters, he can almost make up for his lack of flexibility (he's mostly a distance s and that swimmer, so has many turns, but he can do a decent IM; also his calves/'gastrocs' are very underdeveloped), and has worked all year to improve his freestyle kick, which he has, so his shorter races have improved a fair amount. Think that ankle flexibility is extremely important, in all kicks, as well as for turns/pushoffs...and leg strength. Simple exercise:streamline position standing, go up on toes 10-20x/day will improve strength of leg/pushoffs), of course, many other exercises more difficult: examples: squat jumps to streamline position and variations, mid-pool 50s-streamline to past flags/red, kick to 12 1/2 or pullout on *** to mid-pool. See kids...and Masters...give up 1-3 feet on pushoff/streamline/kicks,pull-out/breakout can add up, because of lack of attention to it by swimmers and/or coaches. Like the ideas of the "5th stoke"/ red zone, that to improve, attention must be paid to this aspect of swimming...inluding the start!

This will be my last post for this thread and as the votes tell, I’m not winning any converts so the balls of the feet are winning. I offer the following videos (again and more) of great swimmers telling and showing you that planting your feet on the wall is an advantage. I suspect most coaches don’t spend a great deal of time training feet planting because when a swimmer has a great turn it’s looked at as a God given gift. I’d like to think that that turning technique is more than a gift. If you can get away from the wall nicely, by pushing off the balls of your feet, it shouldn’t negate coaches from helping their swimmers to develop a more effective habit (may take 6 to 8 weeks) of planting their feet more firmly on the wall and less on their toes. It’s not easy and as you can tell by the voting, not very well accepted. Look at the videos and the testimonies and think about it. I’ve heard Reese, Marsh, Kenny/Quick and other great coaches talk about planting feet firmly and feeling as if they’re (swimmers) bouncing off the walls like a trampoline. So thanks for your time and some nice and not so nice debate. Good luck, Coach T. Natalie Coughlin “Flip turns are much like jumping on land.” YouTube - Natalie Coughlin Swim Tip #5: Flip Turn Michael Phelps plants entire foot on wall YouTube - Michael Phelps turn Ian Thorpe “He places both feet (not balls of the feet) on the wall and literally bounces off the surface.” The last frames of the video show both feet clearly on the wall. YouTube - Ian Thorpe - Beneath the suit - the turn Brendan Hansen YouTube - Brendan Hansen Men's 200m Breastroke Testimonials “Land - Extend your legs, landing your feet squarely on the wall, toes pointing up. As you get better, you will want to be close enough to the wall to have your feet land with your knees and hips are bent appropriately, knees near a 90 degree angle, hips near 110 degrees.” The Basics of the Swimming Flip Turn Source: EnduranceCoach.com “With your feet firmly planted on the wall shoulder-width apart and your hands together, push off by extending your body until your arms are fully extended over your head in streamline position, and your legs are straight.” Perfecting Your Flip Turn Article from CTS Article By Natalie Bojko, Carmichael Training Systems Posted Apr. 11, 2008 “Extend your legs, landing your feet squarely on the wall, toes pointing up. As you get better, you will want to be close enough to the wall to have your feet land with your knees and hips are bent appropriately, knees near a 90 degree angle, hips near 110 degrees. “ The Freestyle Flip Turn for Swimmers - Basics of the Freestyle Swimming Flip The Basics of the Swimming Flip Turn By Mat Luebbers, About.com Guide “As you do the flip, have your legs rotate over from the hips and minimize bending at the knees. Have your feet land about 20 to 25 inches deep in the water and about 1 to 2 inches (ideally) from the wall (for an adult). After your feet come over, extend your legs and make gentle but quick contact with the wall with the bottoms of your feet” www.wikihow.com/Do-a-Flip-Turn-(Freestyle Well, I watched the first three videos, nothing conclusive. The only one that could maybe "flat" was Natalie, but these videos are also not at race pace or even close. You can even pause the video in places and see that they aren't flatfoot. BTW, I was coached by David Marsh (along with some other Olympic coaches and Masters WR holders) in my teens....he certainly never told me to push off flat foot. I'm with GG.....this is bunk.

While I have been following this discussion, I haven't weighed in b/c I think the stakes are so low. I think comparing to long jump, high jump or dunks is misleading because you are running up to the jump. And I think it is hard to tell from the swimming videos posted (tho I admit I haven't looked at all of them; again, not really a big issue IMO). I paid closer attention to my own turns. Weight on the balls of the feet, no question, but my heels brush the wall on many turns, and probably come pretty close on the others. Coming close to a flat foot -- while keeping the weight on the balls of your feet -- probably engages the calves some and increases propulsion. Why do I think this isn't that big a deal? -- most people have a decent sense of how to jump -- quads provide most of the propulsion in a pushoff -- SPEED of the turn is probably much more important than any of the stuff mentioned in this thread. If you are slow getting your legs over on a flipturn, take your time planting your feet, etc, then I don't care how strong your pushoff is, it is going to be a slow turn (similar considerations for an open turn). I've been swimming for awhile, I've heard coaches say many things about turns. The vast majority of these things relate to getting into the proper position quickly, having a good streamline off the turn, and breathing into/out of the turn. I guess that being flatfooted (or not) would be part of the "proper position" but, again, my experience is that MUCH more attention is paid to the proper angle for the legs and hips. AND GETTING TO THAT POINT QUICKLY! If you are spending any significant time at all getting into the exact optimum angle of your foot to the wall, it will slow you down, period. Your approach and turn should be such that the instant your feet hit the wall, you should be in a position to push off (or very close to it: open turns are a little different). Think of it as a hot plate: get your feet off the darn wall! I should also point out that some of the most painful injuries I've ever suffered while swimming have to do with slamming my heels on the gutter on flipturns. I sure would hate to advocate being "flat-footed" if it leads to more incidents like that. I cringe even remembering some of those. YMMV, of course. To a certain degree I think tomtopo and the other guy are talking past each other. I think that tomtopo is mostly arguing for greater engagement of the calves -- hard to disagree -- and the other guy is arguing that one shouldn't have the weight on the back of the foot. Again, hard to argue with that.

I should also point out that some of the most painful injuries I've ever suffered while swimming have to do with slamming my heels on the gutter on flipturns. I sure would hate to advocate being "flat-footed" if it leads to more incidents like that. I cringe even remembering some of those. And those heel bruises take a loooong time to heal. Ouch.

I'm a convert to the flat-foot push. I guess I thought you'd push off a wall the same way you'd execute a high jump or a slam dunk. Turns out those jumps are off a flat foot, too. I already posted a high jumper. Here's a guy slam-dunking: YouTube - Brent Docter Slow Motion Dunk Contest His heels either touch the ground every time, or they get really close to the ground. Every dunking video I found had players jumping off a flat foot. This one is the easiest to see. The evidence for flat feet so far: - All elite swimmers presented push off flat-footed. - Similar dryland jumps - high jumping and dunking a basketball - involve flat-footed starts. The evidence for the balls of the foot so far: - Most swimmers do it. - Some, maybe most, coaches teach it. Advocates of the 'balls' approach would help their cause if they showed videos of elite or high achievers in swimming or other athletic endeavors pushing off/jumping that way. I really don't have a stake in this discussion, as I have a lot of other things to work on to get my times down. But if I were fast and competitive and wanting to shave a half-second off my 100, I'd sure look here.

I too have stayed out of this one until now...it is almost impossible to get a good push off with your feet flat, however, it is a better position to start the push from then just having the balls of your feet on the wall. Like Chris said above...you engage the calves more the closer your heels are to the wall. I think everyone is pretty much saying the same thing...it's how it's being said. 1. You want to start the push with your heels on or as close to the wall as possible. 2. You have to push off with the balls of your feet or you'll go nowhere. The more you engage your calves and other leg muscles, the further you'll go. I think tomtopo is confusing people by saying you push off flat footed. You might start that way...but at some point you have to flex the calves and push from the balls...or bad turn.